Newby here, desperate for some advice (thread 2)

[ForGump]

JRuss

You'd better put on some special underwear. Something to remind you subconsciously that you're a different man now.

Had a good talk w/ a friend going through her own marriage issues, and the idea came up that there can be a "core" issue underneath all the visible problems. At the very least I think it's a useful concept to turn over in our heads. Instead of thinking of your (my) problems being a hodge-podge collection of various mis-steps and bad habits, think about what is a core issue for your W when she thinks of you. She's not attracted to you any more because ... you're not masculine enough (to her on-going perception). Maybe? Whatever that core issue might be for you (and for me), we need to project that from our inner selves.

[JRuss]

Dinner last night with W went well, seemingly. It was a lot like a date. We talked a ton (she had a phone call earlier in the day with her previously-estranged brother that went well and made her pretty happy), eye contact throughout, no checking her phone at all, had good food, went home happy. I was even thinking maybe she might want to get busy (who needs detachment??), but didn't happen. I was upbeat, positive, outwardly calm. Inside I was fairly confused and a little anxious throughout, honestly. You slip right back into those feelings and wonder why is she putting us through all of this. If such a pleasant evening is possible, then why isn't she willing to work on our relationship? Definitely a head scratcher.

ForGump -- I'm still pretty convinced my W's "core" issue is her unhappiness with her life and some of the choices she made (to move back to hometown, take a supporting job at the expense of her career, etc.) that she's projected onto me. I was a depressed guy after our S9 was born and stopped living my life in anything other than basic survival mode, and she definitely got frustrated with me, lost respect for me and, finally, lost attraction to me. But I haven't been that guy for 2+ years now, have addressed and significantly improved everything she's ever told me was a problem, but the problems continue. I think it's inside her, and it doesn't really matter beyond a certain point what I do.

Which is sobering. She's very likely not going to have any sort of epiphany, so it's pretty much me just trying to live for me and the kids at this point. The essence of DBing, right? Still no idea how to detach. Maybe I shouldn't have agreed to go out to eat with her; but it felt like maybe some progress had happened to be asked. Probably just her cake eating. It's hard not to hope that these sorts of things are first shoots of regenerating a relationship, but then also hard not to get really down when/if you start concluding/guessing that it means nothing.

Who knows. Just going to try to take things hour by hour, stay healthy, keep doing 180s as I can spot them, keep trying to detach (not much success yet) and see where things go. Sometimes I feel like there is a giant clock hovering over my life, inexorably ticking down, down, down, with 0:00 being the divorce. It gets my anxiety going, which really is just a terrible feeling as I'm sure you're aware. Sort of saps your motivation to DB, GAL, etc. when you're in midst of an anxiety surge.

[ForGump]

I was upbeat, positive, outwardly calm. Inside I was fairly confused and a little anxious throughout, honestly. ... If such a pleasant evening is possible, then why isn't she willing to work on our relationship?

Haven't had a 1-1 dinner date w/ my W but definitely have had very pleasant exchanges and have wondered the same. It's disorienting, like, "Wait, right now we're laughing and sharing life and enjoying each other's company and ... we're getting a divorce?"

But I try to think of it from her perspective and I think it makes sense. She would acknowledge that I am a decent guy, but she's made up her mind for now that in terms of the whole package, I'm the wrong guy. So in her mind, having a good exchange w/ me is overall consistent w/ her conclusion that I'm the wrong guy. Plus, she's feeling lots of guilt about divorcing me, so it probably soothes her guilt a bit to be nice to me.

My W's "core" issue is her unhappiness with her life and some of the choices she made that she's projected onto me.

I think my W's situation somewhat different. She is dissatisfied but it's not about rational choices she's made. I think the way her mind works ... it's very impulsive, and she craves emotional highs in a relationship. My IC thinks her emotional development might have stalled in the teenage phase.

I was a depressed guy after our S9 was born ... But I haven't been that guy for 2+ years now

I hope you take some pride in this. This is an awesome transformation, and should your marriage ultimately dissolve, it just makes you a better person for the next phase of your life. I think about all those middle-aged slugs around me who seem so dead and stuck in their lives, and ... well, their marriages seem solid, so I feel like life is just unfair. But I do feel good about who I've become, who I'm becoming....

She's very likely not going to have any sort of epiphany.

Maybe she will if you GAL and go dim, and force her to take a hard look at herself, rather than projecting her dissatisfaction onto you? I don't know. At least that is my hope for my situation ... my W seems dead set on her course ... and my only hope is some type of a wake-up-call, some unexpected epiphany. A really slim reed to hang my hopes on.

Still no idea how to detach.

I think if you merely act detached even if your emotions aren't completely detached, that's still progress. For one, it's about what your W sees -- and hopefully she sees some detachment -- and, I think acting a certain way helps you feel a certain way eventually. (The same type of advice that MWD gives to low-libido spouses about sex: that if you just do it, your emotions follow).

Sometimes I feel like there is a giant clock hovering over my life, inexorably ticking down, down, down, with 0:00 being the divorce.

I feel the same way every single FCKNG day. Just when I feel decent, I fear I'm just one day closer to the D being final, one day closer to having that big talk with our kids ... and how it's going to destroy me all over again.

[JRuss]

ForGump -- thanks for this.

Re the "date", yeah, I think you're onto something. Not something "good" from either of our perspectives as guys trying to save our marriages, but an insight into the wayward's thinking. It's depressingly consistent with a W who wants to get to a greener pasture eventually, at least gives lip service to wanting what's best for the kids (newsflash, Lady -- it ISN'T divorce) and sees no reason for things not to be cordial since, in her mind, she'll one day be the best, nicest co-parent of alltimes with the great but unexciting guy she mistakenly married years before. Sigh.

Like your W, mine seems to have identified a lack of "excitement" as a justification for wanting the D. With 20 years of shared experiences, parenting duties, careers that can be a slog in the best of times, well, no $%^* things can be a little unexciting. I told her once, and I believe that, attraction at our stage takes work to maintain. It takes noting the partner's full suite of qualities, mentally choosing not to focus unduly on ones that aren't attractive (and we all have those) and choosing instead to focus on those that are (and we all have those). At least that's what I've always tried to do with her. There is plenty about her that, had I focused on it, would have driven me out of our marriage. If you tend to assign not that much admiration to loyalty and fortitude, for example, and really value newness and excitement, as our Ws apparently do, it makes it hard for us to make any headway, doesn't it? GALing and 180s seem indicated, but mine haven't had much observable success.

I do take pride (hopefully only to an appropriate level) in getting off the mat 2+ years ago. I knew nothing about DB, and may very well have killed any chance at reconciliation because I did it all wrong in terms of pursuit, but I've been GALing for the entire 2+ years and feel pretty great these days, even when I'm completely crushed on the relationship level. There's intense sorrow caused by justifiably sad things -- and it's no fun, for sure -- and then there's depression, where you stop living in some ways, feel sad and you don't even know why. They are different, and I prefer the former. I'd like to have neither, though!

Agreed on the dimming maybe being the only real shot at upsetting the status quo, but how to bring it about? Our current reality is that we do a lot of shared parenting, shared chores, communicate a lot about those things . . . it's just the reality right now in terms of two people both working and trying to keep a house and the children going in the right direction. It puts me in the friend/roommate zone and, I think, keeps me there. I end up not detaching, because it feels for days at a time like it's all very close to swinging back to something good, but then I get Ms. Distancer (seeing it very clearly now for what it is and hoping it loses its power to impact me), and I realize more time's just slipped through my fingers without me doing anything to arrest the slide.

"The Clock" is a horrible thing. It is comforting knowing there are others who have similar sitches. Man I wish neither of us had to be here, though!

[ForGump]

I don't think my W could really get it out of her head that she'd be better off with someone else until she's actually tried being with someone else. And I don't think it's something she'd realize after being w/ that someone else for a day or two. I think she'd have to be with that person for years, to realize she'd arrived at the same place as she has with me. Plus, I think there is some chance that the new guy might actually be better than me. I hate to admit it, but I don't want to presume that I am absolutely the 100% best partner for her. Do you believe you're absolutely the best person for your W?

[JRuss]

ForGump --

There are probably a relatively small number of human males scattered around this earth that might be truly better for my wife than I am. Do I think that my wife would have any real actuarial shot at blundering into one of them, here, in this midsized southern city where we'll be living at least another 8-9 years while the kids are in school? I do not. There really are not that many available men who live anywhere near here who fit her (long) list of requirements.

Getting her to see things this way is the hard part, though. At some point, as I mentioned, she started seeing mainly the things about me that aren't perfect and aren't great to her at the expense of the good stuff. She may very well think finding a replacement will be like shooting fish in a barrel for all that I know.

That said, we got physical this AM (she initiated). This was much less awkward and weird than at the beach. Trying to stay detached and not pursue, which would be a 180 for me. I usually would have tried to follow up to consolidate some sort of relationship gain/improvement by talking about our R or some such or just done a lot of texting and/or e-mailing in a bid to stay connected. I'm expecting some distancing this evening when we get home from work and hope not to let it get me down.

[EDF]

You'd better put on some special underwear. Something to remind you subconsciously that you're a different man now.

I strongly recommend MeUndies brand, super comfy

On a more serious/general note, do prep yourself for the long haul. Most situations get worse before they get better, and even divorce isn't necessarily the end - a number of success stories still involve separation/divorce before the WW experiences the loss that could trigger a reevaluation.

[ForGump]

That said, we got physical this AM (she initiated).

Holy cake-eating underwear, Batman!

You're not halfway bad off as you think you are.

I wish my W would cake eat me that way more often. I mean, at all !

[ForGump]

There are probably a relatively small number of human males scattered around this earth that might be truly better for my wife than I am. Do I think that my wife would have any real actuarial shot at blundering into one of them, here, in this midsized southern city...? I do not.

This was good for me to hear. I'm persuaded that my situation is similar.

[Surfer]

ForGump. I look at it is way. I love her and my kids. Massively. Been trying to accept her wayward ways for years. She went separate in the house post EA planned her exit and left with the kids. I am not at all bad looking, funny, kind, intelligent and a great earner. She won't find another man that loves her and the kids (truly what man loves another mans kids the same way he would his own - there's not many of them) and provides the package (as loving, fun dad and H that I do)? The kids love me and if she needs to go to PA, rather than EA,(may have already - who knows?) I no longer give a Sh!t. She's going down the cheesless tunnel, not me.

Nah done with all that negative thinking. Going to sit back and watch the story unravel. I know the ending. I am happy in this story so are the kids. All really happy. Will she be? I don't know. I don't want her to be unhappy. But I no longer feel the need to be interested in feeling her pain. I just don't.

So are there better guys out there - few, if any at all really. Should you worry about that? No. What should you do instead. Give less of a sh!t about her, detach GAL, have great times with the kids. Make memories. Let her jog on with her journey. You, stop and smell the roses!!!