Do you find that there are men out there who are ok with friendship and nothing more? I always imagined that they would only want to be friends if there was some sort of potential for intimacy. i wonder if I would want intimacy with someone that really should be just in the friend category simply because I am so intimacy starved. I haven't actually joined any groups yet. I think I have always been comfortable with independent pursuits, but realize I need to do that to expand my social circle.m
I really don't know. They say it but lines are kind of blurry.
I have never had a lot of male friends outside of family members and friends' significant others which is not really friendship but more acquaintances. That's why I'm trying this now. But I think I also blur the lines because it is new to me. The one snarky guy I've gone out with and he usually ends up inviting other women to show up when we are there. I like that because I get to meet new people. I think there is always a possibility for intimacy and I don't think any man would not take the chance if it is there--even if they are on board for just friendship. And when it is just the two of us things tend to feel more date.
Definitely meeting through like minded groups is the way to go. At least it brings you toward the kind of men who aren't looking for hook ups as much as companionship and shared interests. And there is a chance to also make new girlfriends.
40s 2teens M14Y BD-10/12/13 rec-1/14 BD2-5/14 rec2-9/14 EA disc-10/14 4/15-BD 3 and triangulation ensues Served with D6/15 MS forced to leave7/15 D agreement signed 8/16 final 5/17
I searched the meet ups in my area a while ago. The ones out west appeal to me so much more. I only really have every other weekend off as my son is still small and my work hours are so weird. I'm gonna look again though. I am similar to you. I always relied on my family for companionship. Very few friends that are beyond acquaintances. Although I have reached out more through all this. So maybe that will be my goal...expand my friendshipson and social life.
Sorry to interrupt your conversation, just some observations from a girl that spent more time dating than ever being in relationship.
Our BD and relationship breakdowns, send messages to us that it is the other half, in our cases men that call the shots and determine the nature of the relationships with have them. That they have all the control, in determining the level of emotional or physical intimacy, or the manner if which we engage with them.
This thinking, this belief this experience wasn't true of your relationships and it is not true of friendships or dating.
You determine the nature of any friendship or dating relationship. It's your boundaries, decisions and choices that you make the determines if you allow a man to be a friend or someone you would consider becoming more intimate with. As soon as you become more empowered and confident in your own abilities to set boundaries and set a high value of yourself, the sooner you will a attract high quality and high value people.
Remember your own power ladies.
PS MSD I like that you are taking a sociological and anthropological approach to meeting people. Being in observer mode while taking social risks, allows for experimentation, to make wrong assumptions and to not self blame when things didn't go as anticipated. This is how I approach dating. I rarely get hurt by any man, as I don't invest him until there are some pretty clear signs that he is worthy of my investment.
Boundaries ladies - for yourselves, not for them. They will save you every time.
Thanks for your insight jelly. great points that I never really thought about...
The way our spouses withdrew, stonewalled, villified, blamed and guilted us, and left is really psychologically damaging! And it's crazy the amount of control we gave them both before and after they left. It was so unhealthy. It's really traumatizing when the person that once loved you and with whom you created life together was capable of betraying and abandoning. I think putting all the blame on me was the worst part though. And your right. I still have that message ingrained..."I better not question, or nag. Just accept". But I wasn't like that before. I forget that I actually have something to offer someone.
I haven't started dating, so am not sure how things will play out. For me, I tend to have strong boundaries in beginning that I'm not afraid to implement. I suspect it's once committed I don't know how to walk away.
What were yours and others boundaries when dating and building friendships?
You can't go R with every guy or girl you like or think likes you. Not possible and your life will be all the richer with all kinds of friends, ages, colours, backgrounds, social status.
Be wary of the wayward mentality and set clear boundaries for you and the problems won't arise.
My situation is very different to Jellyb, I have never dated. I got to know the men I am with first in a group setting. I have had 4 Rs, I M three and was engaged to the fourth.
In fact my shortest R is with WH.
These are my boundaries:
No one who is not free to be with me. If they are M, engaged, living with someone and or pining for their ex. No thank you.
Age appropriate and able to decide for themselves
No relatives, guys I work with, ex bfs of my friends,
Someone who lives as an adult, solvent, hobbies, friends and sees the funny side.
Some one healthy in mind and body.
Someone who has had at least one committed relationship, in contact with their children.
No compulsives.
Someone capable of love and personal growth.
---------------------
So where did I go wrong with WH?
I ignored the flags and did not have any boundaries.
--------------------------
So is it possible to have male friends, yes of course it is and you will need personal boundaries for that too.
Such as if they have a partner you know both and behave appropriately.
Do not lead on anyone you are not interested in getting to know it's unfair to do this to boost your own self esteem. It's hurtful.
When you know that you will not be pursuing an R, let the other down appropriately.
Be moderate with alcohol and take the embryonic R to safe ground.
Be clear this is friendship territory.
Personally I don't do 'friends' with benefits.
Flirt outrageously but don't go too far.
---------------------
Now how can I accidentally run into Liam?
Hmmmmmmm
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
A lot to think about. Boundaries are definitely an issue with me but like jujub I was always very clear on those boundaries in the beginning then I slowly start to give my autonomy away as I get more deeply involved. I recently found some old journals and have been rereading about my love life from my mid teens right up until before I met H. Interesting to see the patterns.
I've been in 4 significant Rs in my life. H was the only one I never considered marrying. The first was with an egotistical blow hard who no-one liked.He was in with the in crowd like H. Image meant more than substance. Just saw it in him. It was so much more hidden in H. I always thought of H as first BF done right. H appeared to be humble where first BF was haughty. They were both the all American high school athletes. Entitled.although h masked it so well. Second BF WAS DEFINITELY a friend more than anything. We had a lot of exciting adventurestogether. Travelled. Tried new foods and music. It was a fun time, but the attraction was never really there. He had his own form of arrogance but they were built around his talents and intellect which was legit. Just annoying at times. And my response when he was being overly pretentious was to start acting really shallow and dumb. Immature on my part, but I think I was trying to turn him off and it worked. We broke up but stayed friends until BF number 3.
That was a crazy time in my life. It was intensity in every way.he was clingy and manipulative--in a childish and emotional kind of way. We broke up and got back together almost monthly in the most intense possible situations. It kind of felt good to be given permission to just give in to every emotional response I felt. I was younger and an idiot and I really lowered my expectations for myself. I came out of that longing for peace and stability. I needed to reclaim who I was. My life was spiraling out of control and on the brink of adulthood I was heading in a really bad direction.
I felt so free and happy when I finally made the decision to never go back after that last break up. I reclaimed my life and started to love myself again. That's when I met H. And he was the total opposite of that last destructive r. He seemed calm and grounded and I never felt like I had to pretend with him. It was peaceful. I quickly dropped all of my boundaries and rules with him because he was such a breath of fresh air.
I think that is why it was so easy for me to ignore signs. To look the other way when subtle things happened. We were living together in less than 2 months and married less than a year after meeting. I never trusted so fully. I never kept my mouth shut like that before. But after the previous R I was convinced I was an emotional hurricane and I was going to be the complete opposite with H. So I would speak up then quickly back down. H must have loved my self-loathing. He was the hero. I was the lucky one. It wasn't until almost 10 years of marriage that I started to realize that I needed to step up to the plate. I thought it was going to save all of our marital problems by me taking on more decision making. Things never got done before and I thought I'd be easing his stress.but everything I did was wrong or annoying. The rules kept changing and I never new. I think he sensed me getting stronger and breaking out of the "I'm the problem I'm lucky he loves me" frame of mind and into a more equal partnership role. He went along with it in words, rejected it on actions. As always. But now I no longer let his behavior dictate how I proceeded. I thought it would make things better. Instead he jumped right into discard.
I am able to separate intimacy and commitment. I was able to be in love 3 times before with zero intention of marrying the person. I can be a friend and lover and walk away when the R has run its course. I've done it three times before and while there was a grieving process it wasn't devastating or bitter because I always new what the Rd were and I understood why they didn't work. They were just for the moment Rs and sometimes they lasted 4 years, sometimes 6 months sandwich between friendship. But I never saw them as permanent.
H threw me for a loop. That was the first time --the only time--I really felt THIS IS THE ONE. This is true love. I felt like me again, but I also set myself up to get subtly torn down. To say our marriage disintegrated isn't true. Yes we had issues and we drifted apart, but that's not entirely true. It was more like we had a wall between us that would systematically be taken down and put back up based on Hs needs. I'd start to move away from the wall and he'd quickly grab me and pull me back in. Once settled the wall would go back up.
He points to facts that "prove" our marriage was breaking down, but those same facts were true even when we were at the heights of our romance. Before even marriage. How does it prove we drifted apart when it was a constant not a change.
All of those things carefully placed as "normal" because in spite of it look at how crazy we are about each other. Until the discard when's it is suddenlyevidence that our marriage has broken down.
I took responsibility for everything for such a long time. I believed the lies. I believed I was at fault. Yes, my boundaries were blurred, but a lot of that was strategically designed. I honestly don't know if I could safely not fall for this type of pathological behavior. My previous Rs weren't healthy or good either, but I knew what I was dealing with. I chose to be in it and I chose to leave it. This time around I was living in someone else's set design. An unscripted reality that was carefully designed to get the response he needed. He was the game maker, the producer, the marketing team and I had no clue that was what I signed up for.
That's why I am a sociologist this time around. Because my instincts were so very wrong
40s 2teens M14Y BD-10/12/13 rec-1/14 BD2-5/14 rec2-9/14 EA disc-10/14 4/15-BD 3 and triangulation ensues Served with D6/15 MS forced to leave7/15 D agreement signed 8/16 final 5/17
H was the only one I never ever considered marrying.
y
40s 2teens M14Y BD-10/12/13 rec-1/14 BD2-5/14 rec2-9/14 EA disc-10/14 4/15-BD 3 and triangulation ensues Served with D6/15 MS forced to leave7/15 D agreement signed 8/16 final 5/17
I had a dream a few nights ago that I was standing outside and watched a family of black bears walk about. There were three, walking in line in size order. As the passed a German shepherd stood growling and barking trying to antagonize the bears.
I don't know who I was standing with--I'm assuming it was family members, but we were all in awe of how the three bears walked passed the growling dog unfazed. After they passed we all sighed and laughed in relief that the bears didn't attack. Then all of a sudden one of them came charging back and tore the dog to pieces.
Even though I was on the sidelines in the dream. In awe of the bears and feeling concern for the dog. I am starting to wonder if I was also the bear (with my two children). Apparently dreaming of bears can represent competition, and maternal protectiveness. I have been obsessing over certain accusations H made that were verbatim words that OW had said to me over a year ago when she told me my M was over. They were a twisted version of something I said, and involves the kids. I feel like I need to set the record straight about what was actually said and what I meant but I know that it is useless and will just make me look worse.
In the dream the dog was antagonizing the bears, but we were horrified when the bear attacked. She was an incredible and awesome beast when she walked by with her cubs. But when they weren't around she was terrifying. That might also be someone reflective of how I feel. It is easy for me to take the high road and do what I need to do when the kids are around. But when they aren't my thoughts can be quite terrifying.
40s 2teens M14Y BD-10/12/13 rec-1/14 BD2-5/14 rec2-9/14 EA disc-10/14 4/15-BD 3 and triangulation ensues Served with D6/15 MS forced to leave7/15 D agreement signed 8/16 final 5/17
I think it finally just clicked--the fact that we are the lucky ones to be the LBS rather than the WS. I know we say it and hear it all of the time. We get to be the ones who grow while they stay stuck. But I really think I finally got to the point where I believe it. And I feel grateful to be the LBS rather than the WS (although I don't think I am the type of person who ever could be a WS).
As awful as it is to be in this position, being the ones left standing stripped, alone, and scared forces us to take on a new world view. To rise to the occasion. To become better, stronger, more in tune with who we are and what our wants and needs are. We get to live in the moment. We get to have the world as a wide open door.
The WS doesn't get to do that. They packed up whatever they could to make the transition as smooth as possible for themselves. And in those bags they packed all of the baggage. They are bringing it all with them to the next doorstep. It hurts so much to be pushed out and replaced. But honestly I think being the replacement has got to suck big time. And the WS changes nothing.
Today is a good day. I feel lucky to be the LBs. I am free of the chains created by my M without having to feel ashamed of how I got freed. I love living in the moment. Today is one of those days that I feel my life is a blessing. I'm sure it will switch again at some point, but I am glad to be feeling this way tonight.
40s 2teens M14Y BD-10/12/13 rec-1/14 BD2-5/14 rec2-9/14 EA disc-10/14 4/15-BD 3 and triangulation ensues Served with D6/15 MS forced to leave7/15 D agreement signed 8/16 final 5/17
I think it finally just clicked--the fact that we are the lucky ones to be the LBS rather than the WS. I know we say it and hear it all of the time. We get to be the ones who grow while they stay stuck. But I really think I finally got to the point where I believe it. And I feel grateful to be the LBS rather than the WS (although I don't think I am the type of person who ever could be a WS).
As awful as it is to be in this position, being the ones left standing stripped, alone, and scared forces us to take on a new world view. To rise to the occasion. To become better, stronger, more in tune with who we are and what our wants and needs are. We get to live in the moment. We get to have the world as a wide open door.
The WS doesn't get to do that. They packed up whatever they could to make the transition as smooth as possible for themselves. And in those bags they packed all of the baggage. They are bringing it all with them to the next doorstep. It hurts so much to be pushed out and replaced. But honestly I think being the replacement has got to suck big time. And the WS changes nothing.
Today is a good day. I feel lucky to be the LBs. I am free of the chains created by my M without having to feel ashamed of how I got freed. I love living in the moment. Today is one of those days that I feel my life is a blessing. I'm sure it will switch again at some point, but I am glad to be feeling this way tonight.
mustardseed
What a great thought you have shared here. It truly sums up what each LBS should jot down and read daily, memorize, meditate on and whatever else one can do to imprint this in the mind heart and soul.
I hope you don't mind but i would like to encourage and ask if you would change the last sentence to something like, I am sure that I will experience a day when I may not feel as blessed, but I will pull out this thought and read it with the emotions I feel now, and I will feel better and stronger for all that I have gone through. I will do this, because I deserve happiness and peace. I am worth it.
mustardseed, it is always with great pleasure that I read what you share and the persistence and vigor for which you put forth on that path that you are traveling. Tonight reading that you are in such a peaceful and blessed place, brings a smile to my face.
Me 46 Former W 46 D19 D7 BD Feb 2016 WAW moves out 4/16/16 D final 6/1/2017
It's time for me to start changin' the way I look at the world......and at myself. ~James Howlett aka Wolverine
