What should I be Doing (piecing 6)

[Georgia Bulldogs]

Stole this quote from Natus' thread. Who would a thought that a woman would be so knowledgeable on what it takes to be a man. Thank you Sandi2, there are some gems in here.

Sometime i feel like i want to take the tough route but i recognise that im driven a little bit by anger. What are good examples of going tough routes without ending up issuing ultimatums?

Sandi2's response which I'm not quoting because I don't want to have to scroll through it to read.

Not compromising your integrity. Standing strong for what you believe is right, and do not negotiate with what is wrong.

Setting boundaries and enforcing consequences if they are not honored.

Do not avoid conflict with your W. Stand up to her and show no fear.

Do not go out of your way or be self-sacrificing, to please your W (especially when she's wayward).

Let the self-confidence ooze with every fiber in your body.

Do not take on the responsibility of "making her happy".

Stop agreeing with everything she says. Learn to say, "no". Immediately address the issues you have a problem with.

Do no be defensive.

Stop trying to "explain" yourself to your W, in hopes it will stop her from getting angry at you.

Do not accept being the center of her jokes, her rudeness, or her put-downs of you. No eye-rolling, talking to you through the kids, or slamming things around to show her bad attitude. You need to have personal boundaries about these types of treatment from her (or anyone else).

Stop letting your W always run the show (being the boss). You are the man with the b@lls, so don't be afraid to take charge.

Do not show that you are seeking approval, especially her approval.

Do not meekly accept her, "Well, you'll just have to settle with ______ (fill in the blank with some attitude/behavior/action). You always have a choice. Never play the victim.

Do not make her so-called "needs" your priority while she's being disrespectful, b'tchy, manipulative, etc. Do not give more than she's giving back, until she changes her attitude/behavior.

Do not be passive! I can't say it enough......NEVER be passive-aggressive. It is sooooo unattractive.

Are you ready for me to stop? Some of these statements may sound like a good case for argument. (Especially if some woman reads this who has/had an unkind H). However, I didn't go into detail, and kept it blunt. If you have the nice guy syndrome, your antenna may go up and say, "But this doesn't feel like the right thing to do. I have always......." This is not about becoming an a$$. It's about showing strength in the interaction with your WW. You will need to read/study about the NG syndrome. The Internet is full of information just waiting for you. You don't have to stop being a nice person and become a jerk. You don't need to go the extreme opposite. It's one thing to be a good person, a polite and kind person. But the NG Syndrome is not a good thing, and it's not what women want in a H. Any woman who has been M to a man who has the NGS, knows what I am talking about. It kills her attraction for him.

Your W is not all the way back from her waywardness. She is doing some things you have asked from her, but her feelings aren't coming around yet. These next weeks are very crucial. I promise you, she will be attracted to the your new interaction....if you apply correctly. Women want their man to be stronger than she is. She may never tell you in words, and in fact, she'll likely buck up about it at first. B/c her way has reigned for so long that she's not going to like giving up her power over you. But once she is convinced that you are going to stand nose to nose and not back down in fear or anger....she'll start to respect you in her heart, at least. Eventually, she'll start to respect you in attitude and behavior. You simply must set boundaries!!

That all applies UNLESS your wayward wife sends you a heartfelt letter telling you how everything is your fault.

A lot of that information about nice guy syndrome, while having some elements of truth to it, is mostly a lot of bunk. The internet is full up with weak men blaming women, girlfriends, wives and ex's for their inability to define what it means to be a man for themselves. Dr. Glover, in particular, is a narcissist serial cheater who cheated on his first wife only to marry and then divorce his affair partner. Then he wrote book rationalizing and justifying his serial cheating ways as he was just too nice a guy and blaming the women for making him behave so poorly. If only he'd learn to be a man earlier he wouldn't have married them in the first place so it's not his fault. He was the victim of women but now that he's figured out the the secret he's gonna instead just date, have sex with and dump a ton of women making no commitments to anyone (insert PUA - Pick Up Artist content). I, personally, can think of no human LESS qualified to teach, guide and/or explain what it means to be a man or give marriage advice than Dr. Glover. He's basically written a wayward husband playbook not something a real decent man would ever subscribe too. But educating yourself is manly, so read away, just be forewarned before you go buying into it and always remember - As a man, only you can define what being a man means to you.

I do want to apologize for getting emotional on your thread. It just upsets me to see misguided peer advice on these forums when there is clearly sound professional (WMD) advice contrary to it. I, again, quote MWD when she says "no contact means no contact". It doesn't get more black and white than that. It's step one in her book and this forum is supposed to promote her concepts. I understand some posters where there for you in the beginning "when you were so emotional" but those so-called mistakes you made are the reason I'm posting to you at all. Exposure is how I got my wife to end her affair too. I apologized afterwards too, but once the cat is out of the bag it makes carrying on a secret relationship much more difficult. I think it's holding your spouse accountable and therefore it's commendable and the biggest reason you've come this far at all.

That being said, letting her stay volunteering doesn't mean you won't or can't recover. Best practices and best concepts/ideas are just that. They are designed to chart you along to the best odds of recovery. It's your life and you are absolutely free to do what you feel is best in your situation. Some wives respond well to being moderately trusted but to be clear continued contact is a substantial risk. Many might say the affair actually continues if they continue to have any contact whatsoever. There's no way you can or should monitor 24/7 and, I've seen it many times before, just one private conversation between the two of them and they are right back into the secret sneaking around affair. It's so tempting for the two of them to try to check in on the other...."how are you doing?", "are you and your husband recovering", "is he being cruel and punishing", "I miss you", "I tried to leave you alone but the compulsion to see, speak and/or hold you is just too much", "I prayed for the ability to avoid you but God must want us to be together - you are my soulmate". They so easily confuse withdrawal (from any emotional relationship) with passion and longing.

If you intend to continue down this path until, through and maybe past graduation, communication is key. I'd suggest something like (these are just suggestions and thoughts) expressing your discomfort with the job and how important you believe "no contact" really is but caving to her desire to do it anyway ONLY upon some really extreme rules (or really commitments to hold herself accountable).

First - you should reserve the right to revisit the issue later on. Be clear that just because you let her do it now doesn't mean you become a jerk for changing your mind and feelings on the issue later. Doesn't mean you are going to MAKE her quit later either. Just reserve the right to revisit the subject. She's getting what she wants now...so she should be okay with that. To restate, you are not agreeing to forever enduring her continued small but significant contact with OM even if she seemingly follows all the rules.

Second - She agrees never to communicate with him. Unfortunately, this gets tricky in the role of firefighting and you'll have to talk through scenarios but the basic agreement is she will treat him as a non-entity. Even if he approaches her she should say nothing more than "no" because it's easy to explain "I said 'no' and walked away" versus "I don't know exactly what was all said but we talked for about 4 minutes and I told him to leave me alone". 1, 2....4 minutes of conversation is too much. Maybe, since they work together and don't want to draw attention to the situation she has a 5 word limit of "hi, bye, yes, no, ok" and anything more she says requires that she call you immediately and report.

Third - I think you most certainly should volunteer too and until you do she should agree to limit her availability for all the extracurricular stuff that goes on. Many of these units have calendars with events on them well in advance. Either with her knowledge (or if you want to be a little covert) book a trip for the two of you somewhere nice that just happens to conflict with the annual Christmas party or fall parade. Give her a good excuse to miss the event and put it off for another year when you both can be there as volunteers as well as being more recovered and more comfortable.

Fourth - She must be assigned to a different place than OM and not be required or otherwise volunteer to "cover" wherever station or unit OM works in. She'll need to communicate clearly with chief (a meeting would be better including you - but other in writing).

Fifth - No social media with OM or his family

Sixth - No riding together in any vehicle (other than a fire truck - but never just the two of them). Maybe if that's impossible she could simply call you and leave an open voice line with you while it's occurring but really rule 4 should take care of that.

Seventh - No second chances. One blatant violation or hint the affair actually continues she agrees to quit immediately.

Eighth - whatever else you can think of and will think of. Accountability is an evolving concept subject to new rules and adjustments. Essentially she is to have no secret private relationship with him whatsoever.


Letting her continue to keep some contact is a big risk. You really should address that risk with her and PARTNER with her to protect your marriage and family from ALL risks (OM & the other men in the firehouse). Accountability is not about controlling the other person. Instead it's about allowing the other person to help you protect yourself and keep your commitments. It doesn't mean being perfect either. She could end up treating as a non-entity and then he goes off on her upset in front of the whole firehouse and she'll feel the need to respond or make a mistake and talk to him privately. It's not about not messing up but how you handle yourself respectfully afterwards, own your mistake and communicate in an honest immediate manner. No more secrets.

Finally - accountability is a two way street. You can lead by opening up your life to being accountable to her as well. Betrayed spouses are actually the next most likely spouse to cheat. It's healthy for your relationship to both be accountable for your behavior around the opposite sex. Successful marriages do this naturally. It's not something unique to recovered and recovering marriages.