Newby here, desperate for some advice

[JRuss]

Thanks so much sandi -- I can't tell you how much it means that you'd spend this sort of time trying to help me. Some answers and responses below.

I encourage you to not press her for reasons, right now. I seriously doubt she is going to be completely honest. What she will say will cause you more anxiety, and probably have you catering to her. One of the signs of a WW is the resistance to get counseling or any help in working on the MR.

If I've learned anything, it's that my pressing her isn't working and is, in fact, speeding everything up in terms of her feeling like she wants to leave. My nature, as I've said elsewhere, is to want to talk about problems, but it exhausts her and smothers her and makes her feel trapped. Not doing it will be hard, but keeping it up at this point is the quickest way for me to get divorced.

I can almost guarantee you it is what's going on in her head! With that said, it does not take away the seriousness of this situation. You cannot control her, but your actions can certainly influence her. You just have to learn what works and what doesn't work. Hopefully, we can save you from making some mistakes.........if you will believe what we tell you.

Everything I've done has failed. I'm 100% open to any knowledge anyone feels like dispensing and am really, really grateful for anything I can get.

The situation may have changed, but the core of human nature doesn't change. Look at what you said in that sentence. Why did she chase you? B/c you resisted her, which made her want you even more. The same principle applies now, b/c that's human nature. But when you are smothering, applying pressure, being needy, and doing all those things that are just unattractive...........she doesn't want you, and she tries to get further away from you. Think of how you were before M. Think of the guy she was chasing. Don't use the excuse that now you have responsibilities, etc. M, kids, house, bills, work, and just life itself can change us.........but does it have to change that thing inside of us that first attracted our partner?

This is the goal. Relatively easy to articulate, but hard (for me) to implement. It's hard to explain, but you get told something like you're unattractive by someone who previously very much thought you were attractive, and it works on your mind, tortures you, and, eventually, your confidence decreases, you start needing assurances, you press, she recoils, the lack of attraction comes more and more to the fore, leading to more desperation as you feel it slipping away ... and then you're blundering around the internet looking for anyone or anything who can help you.

So, everything was fine until she had the baby.........or until you moved b/c she said it was what she wanted?

I would say that everything was fine until roughly 2012, maybe even as late as early 2013. By April of 2014, I got my first, sudden realization that things were not ok (the look while on vacation), so it must have been going on for a while inside her at that point. Since then it's been a long, completely ineffectual attempt by me to get things back. Now, she would say, right now if pressed (and I have pressed -- the wrong move, I know) that it dates back much longer, that she's always had some doubts, but I have a great mind for dates and times, and I know we wouldn't have had some of the experiences we did 3-5 years ago if she was already in a relationship-threatening frame of mind.

Again, taking a "lesser" job wasn't my idea. It was all her idea. I thought it was what she wanted, and that was fine by me.

But now, this is on her list of complaints.

Yep. I've pointed that out to her, and she had an immediate, visceral and negative reaction. I "touched a nerve". I get that she can't take responsibility for this, and that's something we'd definitely need to dive into were we in MC, but we're not, and we seem like we're millions of miles away from any self-awareness on her part. Hoping for that, right now, seems like a million bridges too far.

How long ago since she had the second baby? Would you say she really wanted a second child, after seeing what it was like with the first baby? If her parents were there, did her mother help her? How soon did she go back to work?

My son will be 10 in September. Yes, she really wanted the baby, or so she said. I definitely did, although I was at first nervous. I feel like I'm better now that they are older, but I never had a solid comfort level as a parent of infants and toddlers. I worried and made my worries known, something she's since sited as contributing to the loss of attraction. Neither of us wanted our daughter to be an only child, though, and I was fully onboard when we started trying. Her mother has never helped anything like we thought she would when we decided to move back east, and this was especially the case when the kids were babies (she had 3 under the age of 5 of her own, then added a fourth five years later, and pretty much got enough of that to last her a lifetime, but we didn't know that when we moved). The inlaws are better now that the kids are older, but still not a huge help. I believe she went back to work about 4 months after our son was born.

Would you say this was a significant turning point in the MR, or was it more her that was pulling away from you? When did the sex really taper off........ after the first child was born, the second, or when her book wasn't published?

I do think the book not getting any traction with publishers was a turning point. I pretty much knew it wasn't going to be published, and I think I wasn't good enough at hiding that, even though I tried to help her read it and give comments, edit the versions as she finished them, researching publishers, even picking up her rejection letters from the PO Box because she couldn't take the rejection. My guess -- and it is only that, because we've never been on the same page to talk about it -- is that this was the beginning of her realizing she'd made a mistake in giving up the big job in Seattle, coming east, taking a back seat job-wise, taking the lead parenting role; without the dream of being more than that -- a published author -- she looked around and started viewing her life with more and more dissatisfaction. Can't blame the kids, though, and not able to blame herself, so JRuss is in the crosshairs. In terms of the sex, and I hope this isn't too much detail, we always had a fairly regular dose of what I tended to think of as "maintenance" or "sanity"sex. Once a week, for sure, typically Saturday mornings, maybe another day per week in the first several years, but I wasn't 20 any more and, frankly, wasn't too put out by a once a week routine because we always managed one or two additional more spicy out-of-the box-type encounters during any give month, typically initiated by her but not always. The spicier variety slowed down and stopped (hopefully not forever!) in the winter of 2015/2016, right after I had reconstructive foot and ankle surgery. The regular once per week routine only stopped (hopefully not forever!) about two weeks ago. It had gotten stale and very, very formulaic for a long time before that, though -- hard to feel sexy when she's on record saying she's not attracted to me. It sort of felt like I was assaulting her in a way. I know I'd pretty much hate having to have sex with someone I found unattractive, and you don't want thoughts like that in your head, trust me.

How supportive has she been of you? Does she comfort and encourage you....as much as you so her? What has been her overall attitude toward you been the past several years?

Once upon a time, she was very supportive although, as I've said, she's never been anywhere near as effusive as I am by nature. She did comfort and encourage me, and how she went about that was perfectly fine by me (although I did on occasion ask her why she wasn't more affectionate on a regular basis), until it started to stop. Then I noticed, and started pressing as described above. Her overall attitude toward me the last couple of years has been increasingly more distant, to the point now where it's just horribly stiff and cold and weird. I mean, she's said she wants a divorce, and that it will happen in the next 1-2 years so that the kids don't have to face it more suddenly than they have to; I'm sure you can imagine the pall in the house.

Some may disagree with me, and say it was selfish of you. I see you being the leader in your family, and doing what is best for the whole. After all, she had already had her way about making certain decisions for the family........in which you supported her, but she was still unhappy. I'm not totally unsympathetic toward your W, b/c she clearly was searching for something that would make her fill complete, or accomplished. Marriage didn't do it. Children didn't do it. Her attempt at writing didn't do it. So now, she thinks going into full time law practice, while raising two kids, and managing a home will do it? She couldn't do it when she had a lesser job!

I appreciate this. I guess the problem is that she doesn't see it that way, and any sort of pressing or trying to argue the point logically or rationally just puts me in a deeper hole with her.

I tend to agree with part of what you said.

Why do you think it might be a MLC?

I'm guessing the part about the imagined Superman is what you're agreeing with.

Re an MLC, I just base that on some of the things I've read here and elsewhere. Not full blown, maybe -- some of what I've read about how MLC spouses have acted and treated their left behinds is just unbelievable -- but some of the same elements: clock is ticking, feeling like a life is being wasted, only a short window left, maybe, to be desirable to a new partner. I don't know. She's always been fit, but she got in really good shape and started wearing clothes that more effectively demonstrated that. She's still locked on at work and with the kids, though, so she's certainly not high on the "crisis" or falling apart scale, at least not yet. I may be wrong. Just some of the reactions to things I've said, where I know I'm making what would be great points were we in a calm, rational conversation, have been incredibly sharp and angry, and that got me thinking something might not be fully "right" in terms of her mental outlook. That could just be a rejected spouse grasping at an imagined condition that would explain away his own role, I don't know.

I know that was long, but I wanted to answer your questions as best I could. Again -- thanks so much for the reply!







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