Newby here, desperate for some advice

[JRuss]

I feel like a loser having so little confidence!

So what are you doing to fix this?

Asking advice here, reading it, reading all of the linked articles I've been given here, and trying to implement it all. Also just trying to GAL and start feeling better about myself, which I have to figure will help with confidence.

OK. Thats a start.

Do you have a plan about how to actually implement it?

It's easy to TRY. But what does that actually mean as far as what you will DO?

I know it's already a long thread, but my immediate short-term GAL checklist is a few pages back. That and trying to learn as much as I can and glean as much insight as I can here and in the linked materials is pretty much my immediate focus.

[MoveFrwd]

I know it's already a long thread, but my immediate short-term GAL checklist is a few pages back. That and trying to learn as much as I can and glean as much insight as I can here and in the linked materials is pretty much my immediate focus.

I found the list. I think they are generally OK as far as the kinds of things you want to do. Id recommend as follows:

Id try to look at a little bit bigger picture to make it clear what you want to gain. For example, MWD talks about aiming 5 feet out to make a 30 foot putt. Your goals read, to me, like a good knowledge of the 5 foot target, but I dont see the overlying direction. Where's the hole? What are the middle term markers?
You have several items related to physical fitness and weight...what are you trying to gain by doing that? And so on.

We talked about confidence...what activities in your goal list will address confidence? For example, "try to get a few to start doing things on a semi-regular basis" doesnt really sound like a goal to me. Id recommend to list things out more concretely so you can hold yourself to them more easily.

[Coconut]

Just to clarify on the "no goodnight", my thinking was that she was upstairs at the time, and I would have had to make a trip upstairs solely for the purpose of saying goodnight, which I would have done pre-DB, but it felt needy to do it last night. So it wasn't like I just walked right by her and ignored her -- just didn't seek that little conversation out like I normally would have.

Yes, it does change the analysis if she wasn't in the room. so your 180 is to not seek her out to initiate communication (not ignoring her as I thought), that would be a positive 180.

ps - you mention my tough analysis, please don't think anyone is disciplining you or degrading you because of what your doing or saying.. We have all been right where you are, and all express our help in different ways. I don't beat around the bush, because I like straight talk. If you were to go back and read my thread, you will see it took a lot of 2x4's by others to get me to understand what I told you, now I just want to share to help others.

pps - take darkness' homework questions seriously, focusing on you is where you need to be, and setting goals to work towards goes a long way. by having long term goals, you can easily set the short and mid term goals to get there, and it feels good every time you hit one of those milestones.

[JRuss]

Well, the list was something I worked up in response to another poster's suggestion that I not look so big picture (reconnecting with wife, trying to be happily married again, keep family together), so I'm struggling a bit tying to synthesize all of what I'm reading. 30 feet out, the "hole" as it were, is a pieced together, happy marriage with my wife and well-adjusted children that didn't have to go through their parents divorcing. Intermediate markers? No idea. Maybe my wife coming to me and saying she wants to work on the marriage, maybe go to counseling (she's always resisted anything like that)?

The fitness goals are designed to get into and stay in shape to (hopefully) partially counteract the depression and self-image issues I've encountered as my marriage has fallen apart. The act of exercising (more) helps the chemicals in my brain get into a better place, and looking good helps me feel better about myself. Feeling better about myself is definitely good for me, personally, with the hopefully added benefit of making me more attractive to my wife (or, if not her because I do end up divorced, someone else one day).

[MoveFrwd]

I understand. I dont mean to be confusing. Let me give an example.

The way I see it, you need to set some big picture goals:
- I want to be more confident
- I want to be a better father
- I want to be more patient
- I want to be more positive
- and so on.
These are the big things you want to change about yourself.

Then you can narrow it down:
- I want to be more confident
--> I want to lose 25 pounds
--> I want to dress nicely
--> I want to meet new friends
--> and so on

Then you can continue down as far as you need to so that each item is clearly discrete and measurable. SMART, if you will. And you will know that they all fit in to becoming the best JRuss you can be because they all stemmed from your main objectives.

Otherwise, you can set the short goals - "I want to not initiate texts to me wife", but if you dont see how it fits into the larger scope, then it could be meaningless or getting you farther from the larger picture goals!

[sandi2]

Okay, make room.

I do think my tendency is to think this is all my fault, and I think my wife hasn't exactly done anything to dissuade me from these feelings. As I mentioned, she's really been incredibly vague about what the problems are, has resolutely resisted counseling, and has given me a only a few scraps of information in terms of things I might be able to fix or change.

The more emotional pressure you put on her to tell you why, what, or when.......the more she will come up with flimsy excuses. The sad part is that most H's believe what the W says. And, why wouldn't he?

I realize the modern woman tends to be a bit entitled and may even think that the H not helping enough around the house is a legitimate reason to get a D........but if she is in love with the man, I would think it has to get much worse before she's ready to chunk everything (especially if there are children involved). However, we are seeing this example on lists of excuses more and more.

I encourage you to not press her for reasons, right now. I seriously doubt she is going to be completely honest. What she will say will cause you more anxiety, and probably have you catering to her. One of the signs of a WW is the resistance to get counseling or any help in working on the MR.

The idea that it might be some or even a large part due to what's going on in her head is both eye opening (it would be a relief to know it's not all my fault) and, frankly, scary (because then it's completely outside of my ability to influence).

I can almost guarantee you it is what's going on in her head! With that said, it does not take away the seriousness of this situation. You cannot control her, but your actions can certainly influence her. You just have to learn what works and what doesn't work. Hopefully, we can save you from making some mistakes.........if you will believe what we tell you.

(she wanted more, and I was actually resistant and she chased me -- wow how things changed) for a lot that first (the hardest, school-wise) year.

The situation may have changed, but the core of human nature doesn't change. Look at what you said in that sentence. Why did she chase you? B/c you resisted her, which made her want you even more. The same principle applies now, b/c that's human nature. But when you are smothering, applying pressure, being needy, and doing all those things that are just unattractive...........she doesn't want you, and she tries to get further away from you. Think of how you were before M. Think of the guy she was chasing. Don't use the excuse that now you have responsibilities, etc. M, kids, house, bills, work, and just life itself can change us.........but does it have to change that thing inside of us that first attracted our partner?

Now, moving was not my idea at all. She came up with it. I'd hardly ever been to this town before that but was fine moving because she said it was what she wanted. Work life balance was really causing her pain in Seattle at that point with the small baby at home.

So, everything was fine until she had the baby.........or until you moved b/c she said it was what she wanted?

Again, taking a "lesser" job wasn't my idea. It was all her idea. I thought it was what she wanted, and that was fine by me.

But now, this is on her list of complaints.

We had a second child about a year and a half after moving. She had pretty vicious post-partem after he was born. Not sure if that's relevant but just tossing it into the mix. I remember very vividly her screaming at me about 2-3 days after he was born "Why don't you just go back to work -- you're not any help here!" That hurt and bewildered me, but things went back to normal (or so I at least thought), so nothing seemed amiss.

How long ago since she had the second baby? Would you say she really wanted a second child, after seeing what it was like with the first baby? If her parents were there, did her mother help her? How soon did she go back to work?

Anyway, it didn't get published, and she threw it in a box and put it under our bed. I know it hurt, and I always tried to comfort her, but I think she felt that little bit of distance/separation. And she wanted to succeed so much!

Would you say this was a significant turning point in the MR, or was it more her that was pulling away from you? When did the sex really taper off........ after the first child was born, the second, or when her book wasn't published?

My inexpert opinion is that, at some point, she lost her sense of her self. Or, rather, that her identity, to her, became something (mother, childcare and household leader, supporting role to her husband) that she didn't like or want. She felt like she had made sacrifices that weren't appreciated.

How supportive has she been of you? Does she comfort and encourage you....as much as you so her? What has been her overall attitude toward you been the past several years?

Some women are not satisfied or fulfilled to be a wife, mother, and homemaker. They feel they were created for greater things.....or want to be recognized for more. Well, they go ahead and get M and have a couple of kids and try to keep their pressurized careers. After all, women have been taught they can have it all. Actually, few are able to handle it all, without some area lacking. They have to make choices of what is most important or which they want more. If they don't choose truthfully or wisely, then they start to resent their results... and start blaming others for their unhappiness.

At one point, she came to me and said she wanted to go back to a fulltime law practice, and I stupidly, and from a place of worry, said I was afraid of how that would impact the family (it was already a completely hectic life from my perspective with her working in a less-demanding job. and I couldn't see how we'd manage with two full time law jobs, with late nights, weekend work at times, etc.). This I now know was a huge moment that hurt her greatly.

Some may disagree with me, and say it was selfish of you. I see you being the leader in your family, and doing what is best for the whole. After all, she had already had her way about making certain decisions for the family........in which you supported her, but she was still unhappy. I'm not totally unsympathetic toward your W, b/c she clearly was searching for something that would make her fill complete, or accomplished. Marriage didn't do it. Children didn't do it. Her attempt at writing didn't do it. So now, she thinks going into full time law practice, while raising two kids, and managing a home will do it? She couldn't do it when she had a lesser job!

She eventually got back into private practice about 13 months ago, but it took much longer than she wanted due to the Great Recession (law hiring pretty much went to 0). Her return came after the "I'm not attracted to you" BD. Knowing by now how much I'd hurt her by being lukewarm about her getting a new job, I threw all of my efforts into brainstorming how she could first get the job then, when she did, how she could best position herself to stick and, slowly, start to move up. She's doing really well. Working tons of hours. And I've picked up at home with the kids and around the house a lot, to the point where I probably do at least as much as she does (though I don't think she'd admit it). It hasn't helped anything, though.

This goes back to what I was saying earlier. She will place priorities on where her heart is. A person can be spread too thin......and then, something starts breaking down a little bit at a time.

I don't see it as a full-blown MLC, but maybe some small elements of one? THis idea that life is passing her by, that she needs to make up for lost time, that I've held her back, that there might be someone better out there. I don't think I"m competing (yet) with another (actual) man, but probably am in terms of an imagined superhero who has what few positive traits I've managed to keep (in her eyes) and many, many more I don't, and with none of the failings.

I tend to agree with part of what you said.

Why do you think it might be a MLC?

[JRuss]

Thank you darknes -- this is really helpful.

How it has evolved for me was that I did start working really hard on several of the things you list after the horrible shock of being told she wasn't attracted to me. So I'm about 16 months into IC and a daily meditation practice. Both, especially the latter, have been huge for me in terms of improving my patience, which was a lifelong problem of mine, going back way before I even met my wife. I've lost 25 pounds since January of this year and have been hitting the gym. I look a lot better and probably need some new clothes because I'm swimming a bit in these now. None of this has helped so far, though, probably because, not knowing about DB techniques, I would ask if she's noticed any improvements. She's never been super free with her feelings or dispensing compliments -- more of a save it up for a huge reveal every once in a while as opposed to a daily support model. Which was always fine with me before the problems became known to me, and we started doing the pursuer/distancer routine.

So I want to keep this momentum, but hopefully go at it the DB way, which I'm just now studfying in earnest and trying to live.

I very much appreciate your post -- going to use it as a template for my journal.

[JRuss]

Thanks so much sandi -- I can't tell you how much it means that you'd spend this sort of time trying to help me. Some answers and responses below.

I encourage you to not press her for reasons, right now. I seriously doubt she is going to be completely honest. What she will say will cause you more anxiety, and probably have you catering to her. One of the signs of a WW is the resistance to get counseling or any help in working on the MR.

If I've learned anything, it's that my pressing her isn't working and is, in fact, speeding everything up in terms of her feeling like she wants to leave. My nature, as I've said elsewhere, is to want to talk about problems, but it exhausts her and smothers her and makes her feel trapped. Not doing it will be hard, but keeping it up at this point is the quickest way for me to get divorced.

I can almost guarantee you it is what's going on in her head! With that said, it does not take away the seriousness of this situation. You cannot control her, but your actions can certainly influence her. You just have to learn what works and what doesn't work. Hopefully, we can save you from making some mistakes.........if you will believe what we tell you.

Everything I've done has failed. I'm 100% open to any knowledge anyone feels like dispensing and am really, really grateful for anything I can get.

The situation may have changed, but the core of human nature doesn't change. Look at what you said in that sentence. Why did she chase you? B/c you resisted her, which made her want you even more. The same principle applies now, b/c that's human nature. But when you are smothering, applying pressure, being needy, and doing all those things that are just unattractive...........she doesn't want you, and she tries to get further away from you. Think of how you were before M. Think of the guy she was chasing. Don't use the excuse that now you have responsibilities, etc. M, kids, house, bills, work, and just life itself can change us.........but does it have to change that thing inside of us that first attracted our partner?

This is the goal. Relatively easy to articulate, but hard (for me) to implement. It's hard to explain, but you get told something like you're unattractive by someone who previously very much thought you were attractive, and it works on your mind, tortures you, and, eventually, your confidence decreases, you start needing assurances, you press, she recoils, the lack of attraction comes more and more to the fore, leading to more desperation as you feel it slipping away ... and then you're blundering around the internet looking for anyone or anything who can help you.

So, everything was fine until she had the baby.........or until you moved b/c she said it was what she wanted?

I would say that everything was fine until roughly 2012, maybe even as late as early 2013. By April of 2014, I got my first, sudden realization that things were not ok (the look while on vacation), so it must have been going on for a while inside her at that point. Since then it's been a long, completely ineffectual attempt by me to get things back. Now, she would say, right now if pressed (and I have pressed -- the wrong move, I know) that it dates back much longer, that she's always had some doubts, but I have a great mind for dates and times, and I know we wouldn't have had some of the experiences we did 3-5 years ago if she was already in a relationship-threatening frame of mind.

Again, taking a "lesser" job wasn't my idea. It was all her idea. I thought it was what she wanted, and that was fine by me.

But now, this is on her list of complaints.

Yep. I've pointed that out to her, and she had an immediate, visceral and negative reaction. I "touched a nerve". I get that she can't take responsibility for this, and that's something we'd definitely need to dive into were we in MC, but we're not, and we seem like we're millions of miles away from any self-awareness on her part. Hoping for that, right now, seems like a million bridges too far.

How long ago since she had the second baby? Would you say she really wanted a second child, after seeing what it was like with the first baby? If her parents were there, did her mother help her? How soon did she go back to work?

My son will be 10 in September. Yes, she really wanted the baby, or so she said. I definitely did, although I was at first nervous. I feel like I'm better now that they are older, but I never had a solid comfort level as a parent of infants and toddlers. I worried and made my worries known, something she's since sited as contributing to the loss of attraction. Neither of us wanted our daughter to be an only child, though, and I was fully onboard when we started trying. Her mother has never helped anything like we thought she would when we decided to move back east, and this was especially the case when the kids were babies (she had 3 under the age of 5 of her own, then added a fourth five years later, and pretty much got enough of that to last her a lifetime, but we didn't know that when we moved). The inlaws are better now that the kids are older, but still not a huge help. I believe she went back to work about 4 months after our son was born.

Would you say this was a significant turning point in the MR, or was it more her that was pulling away from you? When did the sex really taper off........ after the first child was born, the second, or when her book wasn't published?

I do think the book not getting any traction with publishers was a turning point. I pretty much knew it wasn't going to be published, and I think I wasn't good enough at hiding that, even though I tried to help her read it and give comments, edit the versions as she finished them, researching publishers, even picking up her rejection letters from the PO Box because she couldn't take the rejection. My guess -- and it is only that, because we've never been on the same page to talk about it -- is that this was the beginning of her realizing she'd made a mistake in giving up the big job in Seattle, coming east, taking a back seat job-wise, taking the lead parenting role; without the dream of being more than that -- a published author -- she looked around and started viewing her life with more and more dissatisfaction. Can't blame the kids, though, and not able to blame herself, so JRuss is in the crosshairs. In terms of the sex, and I hope this isn't too much detail, we always had a fairly regular dose of what I tended to think of as "maintenance" or "sanity"sex. Once a week, for sure, typically Saturday mornings, maybe another day per week in the first several years, but I wasn't 20 any more and, frankly, wasn't too put out by a once a week routine because we always managed one or two additional more spicy out-of-the box-type encounters during any give month, typically initiated by her but not always. The spicier variety slowed down and stopped (hopefully not forever!) in the winter of 2015/2016, right after I had reconstructive foot and ankle surgery. The regular once per week routine only stopped (hopefully not forever!) about two weeks ago. It had gotten stale and very, very formulaic for a long time before that, though -- hard to feel sexy when she's on record saying she's not attracted to me. It sort of felt like I was assaulting her in a way. I know I'd pretty much hate having to have sex with someone I found unattractive, and you don't want thoughts like that in your head, trust me.

How supportive has she been of you? Does she comfort and encourage you....as much as you so her? What has been her overall attitude toward you been the past several years?

Once upon a time, she was very supportive although, as I've said, she's never been anywhere near as effusive as I am by nature. She did comfort and encourage me, and how she went about that was perfectly fine by me (although I did on occasion ask her why she wasn't more affectionate on a regular basis), until it started to stop. Then I noticed, and started pressing as described above. Her overall attitude toward me the last couple of years has been increasingly more distant, to the point now where it's just horribly stiff and cold and weird. I mean, she's said she wants a divorce, and that it will happen in the next 1-2 years so that the kids don't have to face it more suddenly than they have to; I'm sure you can imagine the pall in the house.

Some may disagree with me, and say it was selfish of you. I see you being the leader in your family, and doing what is best for the whole. After all, she had already had her way about making certain decisions for the family........in which you supported her, but she was still unhappy. I'm not totally unsympathetic toward your W, b/c she clearly was searching for something that would make her fill complete, or accomplished. Marriage didn't do it. Children didn't do it. Her attempt at writing didn't do it. So now, she thinks going into full time law practice, while raising two kids, and managing a home will do it? She couldn't do it when she had a lesser job!

I appreciate this. I guess the problem is that she doesn't see it that way, and any sort of pressing or trying to argue the point logically or rationally just puts me in a deeper hole with her.

I tend to agree with part of what you said.

Why do you think it might be a MLC?

I'm guessing the part about the imagined Superman is what you're agreeing with.

Re an MLC, I just base that on some of the things I've read here and elsewhere. Not full blown, maybe -- some of what I've read about how MLC spouses have acted and treated their left behinds is just unbelievable -- but some of the same elements: clock is ticking, feeling like a life is being wasted, only a short window left, maybe, to be desirable to a new partner. I don't know. She's always been fit, but she got in really good shape and started wearing clothes that more effectively demonstrated that. She's still locked on at work and with the kids, though, so she's certainly not high on the "crisis" or falling apart scale, at least not yet. I may be wrong. Just some of the reactions to things I've said, where I know I'm making what would be great points were we in a calm, rational conversation, have been incredibly sharp and angry, and that got me thinking something might not be fully "right" in terms of her mental outlook. That could just be a rejected spouse grasping at an imagined condition that would explain away his own role, I don't know.

I know that was long, but I wanted to answer your questions as best I could. Again -- thanks so much for the reply!







[/quote]

[sandi2]

Thanks for responding to my questions. I am getting a clearer view. I have more questions in this post, and then I will try to taper off asking so many.

Has your W suffered any resent tragedy, like the sudden loss of someone very close or important in her life?

Was your W exposed to any traumatic childhood issues, such as molestation, abuse, rape, or something else? Have you ever felt that she was holding a deep secret?

The "signs" of a WW and MLC are similar, in fact, I actually thought I was having a MLC before I learned more about the WW. Michele W. Davis does not separate the WW and WAW'S in her books, just so you know. I use the term wayward and classify them apart from the walk-away, b/c the WAW may have a very legit reason for having to leave her H. The waywardness is born in the heart of wife that has harbored resentment and disrespect, especially, as well as other negative feelings. The negative attitudes toward her H become more visible. Eventually, signs of rebellion becomes more obvious. She becomes less and less a part of the team, and just does what she wants. Selfishness motivates her decisions.

Your W may not have any type of affair, but she is very vulnerable to having one. She is looking for something....or someone that is better than what she has now.

[JRuss]

Thanks, sandi2. Sobering stuff, but I appreciate it. Wayward seems to fit, unfortunately. Her are some answers to your questions:

Has your W suffered any resent tragedy, like the sudden loss of someone very close or important in her life?

No.

Was your W exposed to any traumatic childhood issues, such as molestation, abuse, rape, or something else? Have you ever felt that she was holding a deep secret?

She has never said anything about anything traumatic like that. I suppose it is possible, but I have no way of knowing, and I do think she would have shared that with me back during the times when we were intimate and shared things. The only "deep secrets" I've ever gotten any whiff of are that she apparently started nursing grievances and falling out of love with me over a multi-year period without telling me. Recently, she took steps to find a rental house she could move to because she said she couldn't take anymore relationship discussions, my "pressing" her, felt like I was manipulating her, making her feel guilty, etc. She didn't go through with it after we talked and agreed we'd at least go slower for the benefit of the children.

The waywardness is born in the heart of wife that has harbored resentment and disrespect, especially, as well as other negative feelings. The negative attitudes toward her H become more visible. Eventually, signs of rebellion becomes more obvious. She becomes less and less a part of the team, and just does what she wants. Selfishness motivates her decisions.

I do think this is what I'm up against.

Your W may not have any type of affair, but she is very vulnerable to having one. She is looking for something....or someone that is better than what she has now.

Agreed. I get that I'm supposed to be detaching and GALing and giving her space, but it is excruciating knowing she's very likely thinking about it and could act on it.

Basically the only thing giving me any time at this point is her desire not to hurt the children more than they have to be. I obviously can't leverage that (although it occurs to me a lot that I want to yell at her and ask her how she could possibly put our kids through a divorce without even trying counseling first) or anything else that would make her feel guilty.