I’d like to repost a comment I made on Superdave’s thread that underpins some of my thoughts on this. I added bold highlights:
Quote: I also disagree that termination of the marriage is in order here. My reasoning is that SD’s wife seems to me to be very “sick.” I think that if she could change, she would change. But like I have argued before, this may be something that needs to be “forced.” The arguments that people will only change when they are ready to change does not make sense to me in all situations. When someone is so dysfunctional, has so strong defenses, is so deluded by their false self, no manner or amount of change on the part of the spouse will create a change in them.
I know many say that the change of the “healthier” spouse will cause the mix in the pot to differ, thus causing the other to change. But how many times have we seen this not work? I think these failures are due in part to the “more” dysfunctional spouse not being able to understand and appreciate the changes made by their spouse. They are too deeply entrenched in their FOO (yes, I believe it comes back to that bird again, especially in these cases)….
Mrs NOP says correctly, I think, that many on this board are here because of serious relationship problems that cannot be easily fixed. Those that can do not stick around long since they are able to get on with their lives. To me, serious problems imply issues with both spouses. The more serious the issue, the more a counselor is needed to help break down the walls.
Does anyone have any feeling on the level of “dysfunction” spouses have and their success rate in getting the marriage back on track? Any recollection of different ways people were able to help a spouse “get it” and start working on the R?
HP, it's got to be good if it preserves the relationship in a good (if not perfect) place. Instead of building up tons of bad juju that eventually bites you in the butt, the two of you are building a foundation for an even better relationship in time.
I had lost hope ages ago and it isn't a healthy place to be. It's good to have it again. It sounds like y'all have made it through the bumpiest part.
HP, I'm glad you chimed in here, because I consider you one of the success stories as well, and you have been an inspiration to me. My own sitch could also be considered a success by many too. When I came to the board last year, we were ML about once every 4-6 weeks, and there was very little EC. I was at a point where I was ready to walk out on my M; the only thing holding me back was my religious beliefs, and even those were barely restraining me.
We are now at a 2-3 times a week frequency, less than I thought I needed, but certainly much more than I had had in our previous 18 years. More importantly, the EC has grown considerably, although it has ebbed and flowed as part of the process. Is my R perfect now? No, not by any stretch, but both of us have grown considerably in the past year. I can no longer imagine a life without MrsGGB. Both of us understand each other's needs much better than we ever have, and frankly, sex has become much less important as an end...it has changed character into something we do as a celebration of all that we are rather than just me getting my rocks off and her wanting it to be over. She initiates at least once every 2 weeks now.
We still have a long way to go, but things are certainly looking up. I doubt I would have been where I am now had it not been for this bb, and particularly had it not been for the support, encouragement, inspiration, and kicks in the butt I got from people here, especially my friend, HP. So yes, there is hope. I am still convinced the key is open, honest communication of inner feelings. Once you can feel what your partner is feeling, it is far easier for you to meet each other's needs.
First thing you need to do, Cemar, is realize that the state of your M is as much your doing as it is your W's, and then you need to correct for what you've done to avoid nurturing the R. That's the part you can do. Until you do that, you are not likely to see improvements in your M.
Quote: Fwiw, I believe that if I could get my H to commit to a schedule that adequately met my frequency needs, the entire problem would evaporate.
Quote: If we were ML every day like the NOPs I think that he would relax and I'd of course be the happiest camper that ever lived and everything else would fall into place.
I'm confused. I start thinking it's about frequency, then someone else comes along and says it's about the EC. Which one is it???
As the lower drive in our R, I'm thinking I'm gonna have to boink him daily in order to make his 'numbers', but I also have to pull out all the stops to make the connection amazing! So, how to do that? Lets see... if I just go for the 'schedule' it starts feeling like 'mercy sex' and that isn't good. If I just go for the great EC but dial down on the frequency then I'm missing that as well.
That is so much to shoot for, and I am starting to wonder what you HD's really want. Do you know yourselves? Are you aiming at something that you can't even describe? Is there just no 'perfect' with your current spouse/SO?
What I really want is to make my dh happy. I'd love to love having sex, but I don't. So I either have to 'force it' for frequency, or really work for the EC. Both are tiring to me, and mutually exclusive I'm beginning to believe. Don't think I'm being antagonistic, because I'm just here trying to find a solution as well. But I'm wondering if we're all just chasing our 'tails' so to speak!
Jen, It's both. When the EC is there, I find that the LM comes easier for both of us, and it helps to increase the EC. Without the LM, the EC soon falls off as well. What I have found in my sitch is that the LM was only the tip of the iceberg so to speak, and it didn't improve/change much until we started tackling the underlying EC issues.
Nobody ever said that it would be easy, it isn't for either party.
There is no magic here. We "HD" people are just like "LD" people. We want to make our spouse happy and we want to be happy. I think both people want the EC so that isn't an HD thing alone. The frequency is the issue where the individuals differ but if there is frequency with no EC then no one is happy. Does that make sense?
We are "chasing our tails" so to speak because in every R the situation changes frequently, people grown and change, medical and financial issues arise etc... That is why there is no universal, easy answer.
Quote: I'm confused. I start thinking it's about frequency, then someone else comes along and says it's about the EC. Which one is it???
As the lower drive in our R, I'm thinking I'm gonna have to boink him daily in order to make his 'numbers', but I also have to pull out all the stops to make the connection amazing! So, how to do that? Lets see... if I just go for the 'schedule' it starts feeling like 'mercy sex' and that isn't good. If I just go for the great EC but dial down on the frequency then I'm missing that as well.
That is so much to shoot for, and I am starting to wonder what you HD's really want. Do you know yourselves? Are you aiming at something that you can't even describe? Is there just no 'perfect' with your current spouse/SO?
What I really want is to make my dh happy. I'd love to love having sex, but I don't. So I either have to 'force it' for frequency, or really work for the EC. Both are tiring to me, and mutually exclusive I'm beginning to believe. Don't think I'm being antagonistic, because I'm just here trying to find a solution as well. But I'm wondering if we're all just chasing our 'tails' so to speak!
Jen, each person's situation has its differences. If you're husband is a HD, sex-starved person, then sex is likely to be high on his thought list and the desired frequency is likely to be high. If your relationship reaches the point where he doesn't have to spend a lot of time figuring out when the next bout of love-making is going to occur, he will probably drop down to a lower frequency.
This isn't really a binary choice of "either this or that" - and "Either the frequency must b X or the emotional connection must be Y, but there will be no cross-over!"
I think Chrissy's approach of making sure it's at least twice a week is a good place to start. Do you enjoy sex at all once things get started?
I don't go into lovemaking with the focus as "I've got to make a strong emotional connection". I go into it with the idea of just going with the flow, doing things with NOP that I think might feel good to him, doing things that feel good to me and just all around relaxing. We don't try to work up some sexual fervor, though we do build on each other's at times. We don't try to work up something lighthearted, though we do end up giggling at times. Sometimes there's a close connection and sometimes the connection's not as close.
What do HDs want? They want the exact same thing that LDs want. I wrote the following a few months back. I think it resonates with either LD or HD.
"I want to be able to discuss anything and everything with you. Conversations conveyed with respect and kindness even on the topics we find difficult, and done so without explosions of anger or cold withdrawals.
I want us to be comfortable, close and trusting enough with each other that there are no "eggshell places or pits of doom" in our relationship.
I want to be able to reach out and touch you with kisses, hugs or caresses with the knowledge that my touch is welcome to you and not something you merely tolerate or outright avoid.
I want you to reach out and touch me with kisses, hugs and caresses and know that you do so for love of me and a celebration of us.
I want to build a lifetime with you that we can look back on with warmth and pride rather than regret and sorrow.
I want to grab your hand, kiss your lips, hug you softly, look you in the eyes and have it be clean and joyous with no shadow between us to spoil it.
I'm not looking for sexual olympics. I'm not looking for overwhelming, glazed-eyed sexual desire. I'm not looking for something new and different each time we come together.
I want to make love to you. I want you to make love to me. Where we can be comfortable with each other. Where we can be open to each other. Where we both lay down our guard and allow the other in for a time.
I want you to be next to me and that I can know that I am the man you have chosen to spend your life with, to spend your days with, and that you would choose me again."
Oh NrsNOP, You have just provided me with the most beautiful description of all my hopes and dreams. I will commit it to memory and say it to MrsSD on Friday. If that doesn't move her then nothing ever will. {{{MrsNOPxxx}}} SD
That was beautiful! It does say what I WISH I had, but certainly not what is actually going on. I'm not sure if we ever had that deep of a connection, so are we shooting for the moon with this one???
I do enjoy it once I get going, but it's the getting going I find hard to achieve. It's not as if there is a piano attached to my ass preventing me from running to him with open arms, but it's a psychological 'piano' of sorts. I have no idea why, but just assume it's just me, part of me.
Did you ever have the feeling you were hd and that situations brought down your sex drive? Do you now have a high drive, or is it just habbit for you? I know you say it was a decision to change, but WHAT was it about you that you changed? WHAT is different now? WHERE did you find the drive?
Intimacy is just that - the ability to let your guard down and to aim to know and be known on many levels in different areas.
That sort of connection is something that has to build over time. The sense of intimacy that often comes in the initial stages of a relationship is usually a pseudo-intimacy. Both people are operating on their best behavior and all the warts and willies haven't been revealed.
I don't think I was HD and while I wasn't watching, someone exchanged the real thing for these Folger's Crystals.
My drive remains about the same, with the occasional "oops, was I just horny?" twinges.
What changed?
My attitude. My view of my husband. My view of our marriage. My view of our relationship. My view of my responsibilities. My view of myself. My view of what's important. My view of what is needed.
My list of excuses. My list of rationalizations. The idea that spending an ~hour making love with my husband was a imposition on me and my time. The idea that my husband's desire for sex was wrong, or excessive, or badly timed, or that it had little to do with me. The realization that my husband has feelings too and working to empathize with how damaging my ongoing rejections, avoidances and withdrawal must be to him.
I want you to know that while I did start having sex regularly, it took time for my attitude and heart to be in a good place. I appreciate NOP biting his lip and continuing to expose his heart toward me even while I participated in grudging sex.
If your husband came to you tomorrow with bags packed and told you that he couldn't live this way anymore, you would probably discover that he suddenly was worth your efforts in this arena. Why wait for that moment to occur?
My drive is to be loving and caring toward my husband in ways that mean love and care to him. I don't have to wait for a sexual urge, or for the heavens to align before I can reach out to him sexually. We work on the relationship outside of the bedroom together to maintain and work toward the emotional connection that enhances the experience for both of us. If there are things in your relationship that bring you grief or anxiety, then those are things that you can ask your husband to work on together.
I saw a quote on another forum that said,
"Marriage IS the commitment of two to meet the emotional needs of the other. If that is not what you have, you have a commitment to the institution (of marriage) but not the spouse."
No one really wants to be valued as a mere prop in the "institution of marriage" as opposed to being valued for themself as your partner.
Don't think I'm being antagonistic, because I'm just here trying to find a solution as well. But I'm wondering if we're all just chasing our 'tails' so to speak! 
