Quote: And I'm NOT talking about an LD/ND spouse who has an "epiphany" and realizes what their issues have been and then decides to MUTUALLY work on it, I'm talking about when only the HD partner initiates the journey and it results in both of them working at it, together.
Choc, I’m not sure I see the difference between the two. In my situation, I changed first, at least in the sense that I was not willing to continue the way we had been. H made the choice to work with me on the sex issue. It has hardly been a ‘walking into the sunset’ type situation. We have both had epiphanies. It is unclear who had them first. Why does it matter anyway?
Quote: It seems that even our Board's most noble heroes' successes are faux and short-lived. Every time someone supposedly "succeeds" at this, they come back later to tell us all that "it's over."
Well, I can think of several people here that have succeeded in finding balance and satisfaction in their relationships. This may not involve the LD spouse turning miraculously HD, and thus not “successful” as you would perhaps describe it.
Quote: Confrontration and self-improvement take courage and motivation. Some of us are looking for demonstrable successes to give us that courage and motivation we need to attack our marriage libido issues.
Choc, you are right that courage and motivation are required. However, ultimately, you are going to have to find that within yourself. Fwiw, it is possible to go from a sex-starved, emotionally disconnected relationship to a passionate, emotionally connected one. This is the course my marriage is taking.
It took courage, it took humility (this is a tough one for me), it took some growing up and letting go of a way of thinking that I had held dear, and finally – it took time. We are still working on it.
I saw your despondent posts and had to respond. I am not here to proclaim “success”, but do wish to give you hope. I would be glad to answer questions, but I am leaving for Europe tomorrow, so I may not respond until next week.
GEL said
Quote:
Very often though the R morphs into something mutually satisfactory that has a much better EC and isn't as focused on "sex" as the HD partner initially wanted it to be. Yes, the sex is there....but probably not at the frequency the HD person initially wanted, but the EC is much better...which makes for a better R.
GEL, you are exactly right. When I started out on fixing my SSM, I just wanted more sex, but I soon realized that sex without the EC is meaningless. Sex doesn’t create the EC, it enhances it. The EC is created by everything else in the relationship – respect, caring, sharing, listening, self-soothing etc.
Here’s a typical situation how the EC erodes – and what was involved in resurrecting it. Thanksgiving weekend was very busy in our house. H and I have a tendency to slip back into our old ways when family visits, and we work hard to overcome that. A couple of times during the weekend, I sat next to H or held his hand and felt rebuffed by his lack of reciprocity. Meanwhile, at some other point during the weekend, I made a cutting remark to H about the messy state of the garage in front of my sister. This hurt and angered him. In the past, we would have slid downhill from this point and totally lost the EC. Instead, we were able to continue to function well, and we talked at night. He felt that I still had repressed feelings that came out during unexpected times (not untrue given the earlier perceived rebuff), and I conceded that it was not okay to be disrespectful to him in public and apologize later in private. He, in turn, apologized for not responding to my physical overtures in public. He reached for me saying he wanted to have me, I told him to take me, we did go on to have passionate, connected sex. Later, H even used the words ‘raw sexual energy’ to describe the encounter. The connection was real, because we had both admitted vulnerability and accepted blame. The validation felt very real.
Lillie said
Quote: BUT ultimately your partner still has to be the one to change because they want to. One person changing certainly does change the dynamics of the R, but not necessarily in the direction of saving the R.
Lil, this is very true. There is no guarantee that the spouse will make the changes that the initiator is looking for. This is the key. As long as one is afraid that the spouse may choose to leave, it becomes impossible to break the gridlock. I know that in my case, the pain of staying in my marriage was rapidly becoming greater than the pain of possibly ending the marriage. I had reached the end of my rope, and was no longer afraid of what he would choose. All I knew was that I couldn’t continue in the miserable situation I found myself in.
I don't feel I am falling into a trap believing that just because people leave they're a success...I don't necessarily believe that to be the case. I do know that if I were to get to a point in my M where I reach a satisfactory place....eventually I would stop visiting here so often myself.
As for Honeypot Dave, I think if you read her more current posts....that EC is coming back, she and her H have made a great deal of progress.
Julie, thanks so much for chiming in. You are the one I've been wanting to hear from.
You wrote
Quote: Well, I can think of several people here that have succeeded in finding balance and satisfaction in their relationships. This may not involve the LD spouse turning miraculously HD, and thus not “successful” as you would perhaps describe it.
You are the only success story I can think of, possibly one other. Please name some that I've missed...
You said
Quote: In my situation, I changed first, at least in the sense that I was not willing to continue the way we had been.
and also
Quote: As long as one is afraid that the spouse may choose to leave, it becomes impossible to break the gridlock.
These two things seem mutually exclusive and contradictory to me. First, you were not willing to continue the way you were and yet if you made any noises about leaving you feel the gridlock would never have been broken. I really want to understand how these two things fit together.
Also
Quote: H made the choice to work with me on the sex issue.
This of course is the absolute key to everything IMHO: your partner made the choice to work with you. If that doesn't happen, this train goes nowhere.
Please... this is the answer I am dying to know: what IN YOUR OPINION made him decide to work with you, given that you felt (as you said above) that there could be no threat(perhaps too strong a word) of your leaving.
And another request (here comes a small rant, so brace yourself): If one more person says "there are no guarantees," I'm going to scream! I know-- we ALL know-- there are no guarantees. I'm not looking for guarantees. I'm the one who coined the phrase after my husband's death: "Sometimes you do everything right and they still die." No one expects miracles or guarantees... believe me, all we want is HOPE... a reason to continue trying. NO ONE, not even CeMar expects his totally ND wife to turn into a sex maniac. Please, no more chiding about expecting miraculous changes and guarantees... we're pretty battle-hardened and realistic here. Just looking for what has "worked" for someone else. As I said, just looking for hope and a reason to continue.
Have a wonderful trip! I will very much look forward to your replies when you return.
P.S. to GEL-- You cited honeypot because the EC in her marriage is improving, but they were ALREADY having sex three times a week! The were starting the climb from pretty high ground... ground most of us have never seen. Her sitch may be a "success story" but it's in a class by itself!
Lillie, We went from having sex about every six weeks, only in the middle of the night when I was dead asleep, with no words spoken and my H seeming more like a horny ghost than a real person to now having sex several times per week. THAT is a huge change. He has also ditched a lot of his religious hangups along the way and I...I...have ditched my anger. Ok, well, mostly. LOL
Quote: Please... this is the answer I am dying to know: what IN YOUR OPINION made him decide to work with you, given that you felt (as you said above) that there could be no threat(perhaps too strong a word) of your leaving.
I will answer this question as well. In my case it was my willingness to keep talking about it...keep bringing it up...keep making it an issue...NEVER let it die. There is a fine line between doing this the right way and encouraging your partner to work on the M, and going overboard and driving any desire right outta them. I came VERY close to the latter many times because I wouldn't let up. I believe that it worked only because my H is incredibly resilient (due to being an enneagram 6, and his FOO as well as being a jolly good fellow)--not because I had any finesse or sense regarding that fine line at all.
Personally, I believe you let your bf off the hook too early and too easily. These situations require a lot of hammering and yammering and, while that's unfortunate at the time, it does pay off and the need for continual fine tuning lets WAY up. The NOPs probably don't even do this anymore. They are just in the groooove, lol.
Boy I'm glad you posted that, I was hoping my memory wasn't failing me when it came to citing you as a "success".
Also, I totally agree with you in that this takes persistence and constant communication. Finding the right combination of the two is tricky though that's for sure...and exhausting.
Quote: Personally, I believe you let your bf off the hook too early and too easily. These situations require a lot of hammering and yammering
We've been to two marriage counselors and he's in therapy now. I'm 57 years old, not married, and have no children. He has an ED problems that are not going away-- will I ever see an erect penis again before I die? I don't want to spend whatever years I have left hammering and yammering.
Also
Quote: the need for continual fine tuning lets WAY up. The NOPs probably don't even do this anymore.
I wonder about that...
Mrs. NOP, in one of your recent posts to Lou, you referred to y'all's "limited success." I'm curious as to what you meant by that. Many of us look to you and NOP as Emerald City-- once we get where you are, we won't have to struggle so much any more. Do y'all still struggle at all with the sex issue?
Mrs. NOP, in one of your recent posts to Lou, you referred to y'all's "limited success." I'm curious as to what you meant by that. Many of us look to you and NOP as Emerald City-- once we get where you are, we won't have to struggle so much any more. Do y'all still struggle at all with the sex issue?
The "limited success" reference was in context of the 2+ years we were hammering away at the situation.
From post to Lou: "In our interminable discussions during the 2+ years we waded through this, I suspect that NOP thought I was just trying to deflect the sex issue by bringing up the relational problems. And I could see how it would have appeared that way. Our limited success has been detailed here by NOP, with the occasional "I think we've made it" amidst a great deal of dead and dying monkeys.
As you've noted above, the "turning the corner" point came when NOP agreed that I might have issues within the relationship that were as important to me as his were to him, that needed to be addressed." End repost:
NOP and I do not struggle with sex anymore and haven't in a long time. As HP so aptly put it, we're in the groove. We still make love daily. There aren't any more undercurrents, riptides and pits of doom to crawl through.
There are days when we are more emotionally connected than at others, but we have never gone back to the level of disconnectiveness that was our daily life for years.
Quote: not willing to continue the way we had been.
and also
Quote: As long as one is afraid that the spouse may choose to leave, it becomes impossible to break the gridlock.
These two things seem mutually exclusive and contradictory to me. First, you were not willing to continue the way you were and yet if you made any noises about leaving you feel the gridlock would never have been broken. I really want to understand how these two things fit together.
I believe the point she was making is that in order to be willing to make an issue of it you need to be willing to lose your partner. That the drastic things necessary to make progress by definition will cause a risk of losing your partner.
I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth but this was my interpretation.
Gone the carvings and those who left their mark. Gone the kings and queens, now only the rats hold sway.
Fwiw, I believe that if I could get my H to commit to a schedule that adequately met my frequency needs, the entire problem would evaporate.
He is a 'schedule' person. He likes to do the same things every day. Spontaneity drives him crazy. He wants to know what's happening when and, more importantly, what's expected of him.
If we were ML every day like the NOPs I think that he would relax and I'd of course be the happiest camper that ever lived and everything else would fall into place.
However, that won't work in our situation so our illustration of success is going to look much different. This may be as good as it gets, but I doubt it. I feel us continually making headway on this journey. Some days we rush ahead several miles, some days we punch each other back a few hundred yards. The end result is that we are moving forward.
Also, fwiw, I believe that our problem would have been long resolved were our children older. The fact that they are so young and so dependent on us weighs heavily on us and our ability to devote the proper amount of time to the M. Right now, we are devoting oh about 15 minutes per day to each other and that is us exhausted and barely speaking at the end of the night. We do not go out alone and even spent our 10th wedding anniversary getaway with the 3 lil ones in tow.
I have high hopes for our future--which is something I did not have a year ago. I did not believe that my H had it "in him" and now I do.
I know-- we ALL know-- there are no guarantees. I'm not looking for guarantees. I'm the one who coined the phrase after my husband's death: "Sometimes you do everything right and they still die." No one expects miracles or guarantees... believe me, all we want is HOPE... a reason to continue trying. NO ONE, not even CeMar expects his totally ND wife to turn into a sex maniac. Please, no more chiding about expecting miraculous changes and guarantees... we're pretty battle-hardened and realistic here. Just looking for what has "worked" for someone else. As I said, just looking for hope and a reason to continue.