There have been a couple of success stories I have seen, but those people no longer come here, or rarely visit anymore....cuz they don't need to. But I believe those successes were prompted by the person (as I recall generally the HD) doing the things many of us have mentioned that eventually did lead to the other person "getting it". Very often though the R morphs into something mutually satisfactory that has a much better EC and isn't as focused on "sex" as the HD partner intially wanted it to be. Yes, the sex is there....but probably not at the frequency the HD person initially wanted, but the EC is much better...which makes for a better R. Now, if that's not your idea of success then I don't think I could say I've seen many successes....but for me, that would be a HUGE SUCCESS!
I would be THRILLED with this, GEL, and yes -- I would consider that a HUGE success as well.
Quote: But what you said is that you want instances where they do have a success where one of the spouses got the ball rolling....The NOP's. I believe Mr.NOP's (correct me if I'm wrong guys) got the ball rolling....then eventually with work, with communication, with change on Mr.Nop's part...Mrs.Nop's eventually started making changes as well. You can see for yourself what a wonderful R they now share.
Maybe I misunderstood their history. I had thought that -- although they had each taken a "run" at this thing before, unsuccessfully -- they had decided to finally work on it TOGETHER, and they BOTH realized that there was a problem and were willing to attack it. I could be wrong.
Quote: But as you said yourself....one person has to get the ball rolling. Isn't it our responsibility as the HD spouse with the issue (afterall the other S doesn't think it's an issue) to get that ball rolling, in whatever manner it takes, if we value our M's as so many of us do?
I don't know if it's our responsibility , but I'd concede that it's probably the only way anything's going to happen. But my point is that I've see how much pain, conflict, angst and WORK this is, and yet I see no lasting successes. I am perfectly willing to endure pain, conflict, angst and to WORK at it -- I just want some motivation to do so, and see others' success.
It seems those that supposedly pulled it off -- Tim47, csw, others, and now the mighty SuperDave -- it was only a short-lived tease for them. It's demoralizing.
There have been others, perhaps some of the other posters on here who have a better memory than I do can recall their BB names....but I do recall seeing a few people who do occasionally still visit who have experienced success.
And as for the NOP's yes, eventually I believe they did work together....but one person got the ball rolling. One person always has to set the ball of change in motion. For me, I do view it as my responsibility to start the ball rolling....if I don't do it nothing is going to happen and I'll be stuck unhappy for the remainder of my M, why? Because my H didn't think we had a problem.
I'm not one for quoting patterns (Lil you're going to love this)...but it is often the case that one person in the SSM has a problem with the state of things.....the other person doesn't, they are perfectly content. If the other person doesn't have a problem with the state of the M....then why would they do anything to get the ball rolling, why would they be motivated to make any changes? That is why I say it is our responsibility....we (whether HD/LD) see a problem, we are unhappy with the state of our M, we need to do something about it.
The process is very hard, I certainly won't deny that, and it has many ups and downs to it, can't deny that either. But for me, I can't look to others to motivate me, I have to look within myself for that motivation. I have to remember I'm dealing with Mr.GEL, not anyone else and deal with us and our own dynamics. I have to try to tune into what Mr.GEL responds to and what he doesn't and work with that....because what others have tried may not work for us. If I look to someone who had success doing something and it doesn't work for me...that's just going to knock me down that much harder thinking "but it worked for them.".....that's why I have to motivate myself. I do that by noticing what Mr.GEL does that says he loves me (even if it's not in the way I want) and remembering that I do love him too and that we have a 2S together that loves us both and that he's an OUTSTANDING father to. Reminding myself of things like that.....motivate me to continue trying.
Quote: So what CeMar is looking for (and frankly, I am too), are examples of where the HD partner "changes themselves for the better," and then the LD/ND spouse is forced to make changes as a result.
I agree-- there are NO examples of this.
And CeMar is not looking for guarantees... he is looking for HOPE.
I believe a subtitle of this board could and should be: "abandon hope all ye who enter here."
One book I'm reading called Real Love says that nothing you do will change your partner until they are ready to change ON THEIR OWN (we knew that), so you basically have three choices:
1) live with it (the behavior) and hate it 2) live with and like it 3) leave.
BTW I'm not aware of any success stories where people just left and didn't come back because they don't need to. People do leave... but usually they come back because things aren't working. Julie33 may be an exception. Wish we knew what happened to Jenny!!
So what CeMar is looking for (and frankly, I am too), are examples of where the HD partner "changes themselves for the better," and then the LD/ND spouse is forced to make changes as a result. And I'm NOT talking about an LD/ND spouse who has an "epiphany" and realizes what their issues have been and then decides to MUTUALLY work on it, I'm talking about when only the HD partner initiates the journey and it results in both of them working at it, together.
Define "changes themselves for the better".
NOP worked on our sexual discrepancy issues for a solid *2 years*.
I didn't have an epiphany. I was, at best, a very reluctant partner. We argued more in those 2 years than in the 25 that proceeded it. As those 2 years progressed, what NOP made clear was *this issue was not going to go away*.
The following is my personal opinion based on observing posts, going back and reading people's past histories and reading from other boards.
There is no one discussion fixes all. There is not even a "one discussion per year" that will accomplish a change. It would be nice if you could express your desires, weep your tears, keen with your unhappiness and our spouses would rush forward to satisfy us. But that doesn't often happen. If you want change, someone must keep pushing.
Quote:
It seems that even our Board's most noble heroes' successes are faux and short-lived. Every time someone supposedly "succeeds" at this, they come back later to tell us all that "it's over."
Confrontration and self-improvement take courage and motivation. Some of us are looking for demonstrable successes to give us that courage and motivation we need to attack our marriage libido issues.
I'm sorry, but I just don't see any. I honestly wish I did, but I don't.
I think you must take into consideration that this forum is composed of what would be considered the hard-core cases. It is self-selected primarily by folks who have been in long-term relationships who haven't been able to reach a place of compromise. Most of us are at the other end of the bellcurve with some folks who have sex less than a dozen times a decade. Take that into consideration when trying to extrapolate a percentage of success. Those with less entrenched issues read, post a few times and head on into the sunset. It's like reading a forum for quadraplegics and wondering where all the marathon runners. are.
What I see is this. Spouses with higher drives who want their lower drive spouses to push past their own comfort zone and participate sexually and sensually with the HD spouse.
When you are lower drive, being lower drive can very much be a part of your core personality. So, like it or not, you are asking your spouse to alter something they perceive as *being* themself.
How easy is that to do? Well, ask yourself that - (rhetorical questions follow)
How easy is it for you to stand up for yourself when your spouse is assaulting you verbally? Or when s/he is turning the house topsy-turvy 'cause they had a bad day or the kids have been difficult?
How easy is it for you to push past your own passivity and engage your spouse into ongoing uncomfortable interactions when things have been peaceful (because you have chosen to bury your own desires)?
How easy is it for you to keep pushing an issue when everything within you believes that you shouldn't have to? When you think they should do it just because they love you?
How easy is it for you to be financially responsible, or fiscally conservative, or financially more carefree?
How easy is it for you to be assertive, even agressive?
How easy is it for you to be coy and play hard to get?
How easy is it for you to quell your anger and deal with issues in a mature, calm fashion?
How well are you dealing with your desire for your LD spouse to initiate, instead of always having to be the one to do so?
How rare is "our" problem in society? Is it just us or is it our R that is the problem? Are we just the ones destined to have R problems, or are we just the ones excited enough about the R problems to post on boards, or is their just some peculiar dynamic when you put certain people together that causes this problem, and the rest of the world is "ok?"
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Quote: One book I'm reading called Real Love says that nothing you do will change your partner until they are ready to change ON THEIR OWN (we knew that), so you basically have three choices:
1) live with it (the behavior) and hate it 2) live with and like it 3) leave.
Or live with your spouse and actively deal with the issues.
In a relationship with the associated dynamics that are involved, the two of you together are creating something of a separate entity. A "we," if you will.
As the other member of a two-member relationship, changes that *you* make *have* to change the relationship. When the relationship changes, the other member of that two-member entity has to change.
Your spouse always has the same option you do, which is to change because they are no longer at peace with the relationship or leave the relationship. But, if you change how you act and react, your spouse will have to because the ying no longer exists for them to yang against.
But the spouse that is unhappy has got to be willing to break out of their own comfort zone.
Don't fall into the trap of thinking that just because people drift away from this board they must have been successful. Tim47 for instance was a prolific and valuable contributor here and suddenly left the board. I have been in touch with him privately since (we share the same hobby) and he was quite depressed with job worries and was giving the R stuff a rest. I'm not convinced that AtlDave was sorted either. As to me, apart from the ocasional high point, all I am/was getting is once a week mercy sex which is not really "Success". I completely agree with GEL when she says that the important thing is Emotional Connection. In my mind's eye what I am really striving for is EC and sexual frequency is of secondary importance. Take Hopeypot's case for instance. She is getting more sex than anyone (3 times a week at the last count I think) but she is still unhappy because the EC is not there. The despair that we all feel deep down is that the EC will never come and we will go through our whole lives never knowing what it is like to live in a state of emotionally connected love. The Mighty SuperDave - I like that
This author equates "live with it and like it" to "live with it and actively work on the issues." IOW live with hope. Basically he's saying that "living with it and hating it" means being angry and resentful all the time, and this will ultimately get you nowhere. He says if you want to put out a fire, you don't pour gasoline on it.
What he means by "live with it and like it" isn't exactly that you LIKE the obnoxious behavior, but that you don't get hooked into getting angry about it (see above reason). That you recognize that your partner's POV is valid even if it pi$$es you off. That you GAL, refuse to fight, don't engage in destructive conversations.
BUT ultimately your partner still has to be the one to change because they want to. One person changing certainly does change the dynamics of the R, but not necessarily in the direction of saving the R.
Quote: This author equates "live with it and like it" to "live with it and actively work on the issues."
That makes more sense to me.
Quote: BUT ultimately your partner still has to be the one to change because they want to. One person changing certainly does change the dynamics of the R, but not necessarily in the direction of saving the R
Well, that's because we don't have control to guarantee the outcome.
It is quite true that changing our actions and interactions in a marriage may result in our spouse dumping out totally. There are no guarantees that what you need in a relationship will be provided by your spouse.
But it is also quite true that changing our actions and interactions will absolutely result in a change in the relationship.
I think that change can't just occur in a communication vaccuum. There was no question in my mind what NOP's issues were in the years we worked on our sexual discrepancy issues. I didn't know if I could meet them or even if I would want to try to meet them, but the status quo was no longer available as an option.
