WAW,still angry, am I indifferent or detached now?

[roist]

Have a good Sunday SH

[PsySara]

I still have this nagging feeling that I got over the pain, and struggles too fast. Not sure why I worry about this so much of late. But I do.

If I had to guess, maybe you're afraid you're dissociating from those feelings (this is an unconscious defense mechanism) and you're afraid they will suddenly surface in a deluge? I am projecting myself because I have had these blissfully numb moments just to have the resentment/pain/sense of betrayal suddenly flood in. I say enjoy the island of peace while it lasts, maybe it will become a detachment that lasts?

I feel so bad for your daughter, she is so lucky to have you as her father though.

[Vanilla]

SH

Those feelings may emerge from time to time. It's possible.

I think it will never be as strong again, the tools you have learned will mean you recognise it.

In addition you observe the harm this is directing at your Ds and therefore knowing this your resolve will be greater. It is one thing to take the hit yourself but quite another to see D17 a target of it.

It's a long journey back for WAW. My own view? You are not so vulnerable to those feelings because of the harm you have seen inflicted on your Ds.

Do I think you have recovered?

No

I think you are still deep in it. Your spew shield protects you as you use it to protect your Ds.

V

[Vanilla]

You use it well

V

[Phoebe]

Hi there SparrowHawk!!!

My visitor has flown the coop and I am finally back to see how you are doing. I am very happy to read that you are doing so well, but sorry to hear that D17 is struggling.

As with your own emotions, whatever she is feeling is normal and part of her own process. Try to remember that you can't fix things for her, much as you want to, and you certainly can't fix her. She needs someone to listen and offer her the unconditional love that she needs to feel secure. She needs to know that you are there for her if she asks for help. I wonder if perhaps she is looking for a sounding board for her thoughts more than she is looking for advice. I know that just talking to another person can help me sort through my own thoughts and feelings.

I hope you have a good day tomorrow.

[SH_]

I had a wonderful Sunday roist. Thank you for the well wishes.
Sara, the island of peace has been a better place to be compared to the he// of a couple of months ago and the anxiety and depression. D17 is strong, and it is tough to see her break down. I relate to her pain, and would do anything to keep her free of it.

V, as always your thoughts add to my perspective and sheds light on ways that I can proceed. Thank you.

Today was very pleasant. Both d's were in very good spirits all day long. Church was nice, and we spent a bit of time at the pool afterwards. We are experiencing a record breaking heat wave, so it was refreshing and fun. We had the whole pool to ourselves so it was a good time.

D17 will be gone tomorrow through Thursday at a young women's church activity andd5 will be with her mother tomorrow and Tuesday. It will be my first days absolutely alone since the move out........I feel good and at peace. I will miss my baby girls, but they will be back in a couple of days so I will plan some things for myself. I plan to purchase a car. This will be a big deal as D17 was contacted about a great job opportunity. She is so excited and the 2 nd car will be greatly needed for her now.

Good things are happening and I am feeling stronger each day. I only think of WAW when I am hearing from D17 of the rough interactions. I will journal a blow up by WAW with d17 tomorrow as I need to get to bed so I can be up for my early morning jog at 430.

Sleep well everyone.

[Phoebe]

You changed your name!!! Congratulations on the more positive moniker, SH.

You're still going to be SparrowHawk to me, except when you're being Sledge Hammer.

[SH_]

Lol that's right Phoebe! What a brilliant idea.
I am bringing the sledge hammer now instead of a 2x4's

[SH_]

I thought SH covered many good and positive meanings so I had to go with it.

[SH_]

I am alone tonight for the first time since WAW moves out. d17 is at a girls camp until Thursday and d5 is with her mother. And, while i have a small sting of loneliness, it is not all bad. I have had some time to do little things and seek out a new car. Still have not purchased, but I am getting closer to what I need.

On that note, I have a few minutes to follow up on thoughts from my musing a bit ago. It has continued to be on my mind.

Phoebe, thank you for sharing your thoughts as they led me to think additionally and in a good way.

Something that I noticed is that you talked about how you wanted any partner of yours to evolve over time. I think that while it is normal to want what's best for our partners, it is not our job to improve them, fix them, or expect them to evolve. Ours is to love them, flaws and all, maybe especially because of those flaws and frailties.

I agree that it is not our job to improve our partner, nor fix them. This is a key principle that all of us should live by as it relates to any persons in our lives. I also agree strongly that we should love them flaws and all no matter what.

I however do feel strongly that the expectation that our partner evolves is necessary for a good long term relationship. Understand that I want a partner to desire to evolve, but I did not say that the pace or success of the evolution was the key to my involvement in a relationship with this person. It is simply an expectation that the person desire to do so.

My thoughts are that evolution happens for survival. When we look at anything that evolves, one can see that the things that evolve and adapt survive, while those things that do not adapt and evolve tend to perish. This is why I have looked back on my MR and identified too many things that did not evolve, wondered which, if not all of those things led to the demise of my MR.
I worried about many of the things that I saw that failed to evolve with my WAW, but loved her anyway. I fought to do what I could to hopefully overcome those things that were not evolving.
But alas, as I continue to watch her behavior now, I see the very things that never evolved, are taking an even stronger footing in her day to day life and that she will go deeper into the rabbit hole. It is not healthy for her, not her daughters at this point.

Evolution is key for all of us. For what is life, if we are not learning and evolving as we learn and make mistakes. We can not continue as if we were children. We must evolve.

They say the definition of insanity is continuing to do what you are dong and hoping for different results. This is what happens when one chooses not to evolve.

Evolution and adaption are key to any relationship and I stand firmly by this notion. Dbing teaches that evolution is key to much of what we can do to save a MR, and or ourselves.

For this I will have an expectation for any future relationship that I become involved in, that it is with a partner that will desire to evolve and progress.

People can and do change, but they will only do it happily and genuinely if they change for their own reasons and for themselves. Just as an example, they may develop interests that overlap ours because they want to do so for their own benefit, and not because we want them to do so. If the benefit they happen to be working towards is to spend more quality time with us, then so much the better. It's not fair to expect them to develop that interest, however.

People must change for their own reasons. I agree strongly with this point.
But I believe, that they must be willing to evolve if they want to move forward in life, in relationships and in roles that they take on, like the role of a parent or partner.

Change is defined as make or become different.
This is a more permanent definition and a more fixed outcome.

Evolution is defined as the gradual development of something, especially from a simple to a more complex form.
This is a more fluid process, and does not stop at a fixed point.

I agree that we can not expect a person to change for any reasons other than their own. But when a person takes on a role, evolution should be the expectation. Whether that role be a parent, an employee, a player on a team, a business partner, or any other role one can take on. If one does not evolve, they will fade away and perish in that role.

So to clarify. My thoughts on a person changing their bad habits around health. It should be for their own reasons. If they want to lose weight, or feel better, than I as a H, can not expect a change.

But when one takes on the role of a parent, then the expectation to evolve the poor habits must exist for the benefit of the children. I don't expect my W to lose 50 pounds, but I do expect that she evolve her habits for food and movement for the sake of our children. It is a different expectation.

In my sitch, I believe this was a big breakdown for us. For the first half of our marriage, i did not do much to expect change in her poor spending habits and health habits. I even participated in a show of support and love for her.
But then debt piled up. I took on the responsibility for fixing our finances. She would fight this. i would explain why we needed to do it. I would take on all the responsibility for paying the bills and balancing our money. She would get angry if I said we did not have money. She would get more upset when I showed her. She failed to evolve, but worse, she actively worked to avoid the evolution.
When d17 started high school, she was about 35 pounds over weight for her size. She asked her parents to help her and support her, by having healthy food in the home and excluding the unhealthy foods to avoid temptation. She asked for support to exercise.
I evolved and helped her and lost 50 pounds myself.
My W, resisted, would "sneak" around to get her fix of junk food, soda and fast food and became bitter over time. I use the word sneak because she blamed me for having to do so. The truth, is that she committed to supporting the healthy choices for our daughter, but chose not to really do so. Sad, that I was blamed for her behaving like a child. She could have supported her daughter, and not gone underground to eat poorly. She did not have to do what her daughter and I did, but she said she felt guilty if she did not say she would. She had not evolved form a childlike mentality in this example. I still loved her, in spite of her poor health. But her lack of evolution eroded her relationship with me, and now it continues to erode with her d17.

People work on self-improvement for themselves, not to please us. They lose weight or go to the gym because they want to feel better, not because we tell them they ought to.

Wanting them to be different than they truly are is all about us, and we know where that leads - resentment, distrust, pain. On both sides of the equation.

I guess I'm just trying to point out that maybe this expectation of evolution, which is what you want for yourself, is not fair to place on other people.
[quote]

I agree that self improvement is for ones self and I can not expect changes for them.
But I do believe that when in a MR, there should be an expectation of evolution. Working together requires this for survival. I believe that our society may have swung a little far to the individualism aspect and due to this, the sacredness of working as partners has eroded. Team work requires a constant evolution, but when one does not evolve, and remains in a selfish state, then the relationship is most likely doomed.

I hold my belief that I can expect my future partner to want to evolve and work towards it.
I also agree with you Phoebe, that I can not expect my partner to change, as that is on them to desire that.


[quote=Phoebe]
I don't know if I'm expressing myself very well tonight, and maybe I'm off base. I'm definitely not being critical, just asking you to consider an alternate perspective. It's just kind of what came to mind when I read your musings.

I hope you sleep well, dear SH. Pencil smiles, chickens in saddles, chocolate thoughts, and lots of other neat stuff!

Phoebe, thank you for helping me to separate my thoughts on expectations around change and evolution.
You expressed yourself well, and added to my overall theory with details that can clarify my musings.

Hopefully I have expressed my musing in a clear manner. But now my brain hurts.