Ok, now that I've made it through all 8 pages, I'm caught up with what you have available. Let me preface by saying I didn't have to stand as long as you, and I cannot highlight enough the strength you've shown.
Before I go into too much, I'm going to attack this right here: Quote: I need to try this in the friend zone.
You are her HUSBAND. I can't put it exactly as MrBond used to tell me, but remember this point. Be her friend, but not her Bro. Get what I mean? One of the first things that drew my W back to me was seeing me return to that friend who was her Rock. However, it was made very clear within my boundaries to her that I am not her friend, and that if we were to divorce, we would simply be parents to our S. I never let it be interpreted as anything else.
It seems like a lot of information is missing from earlier deleted posts, so I'll go off of what I've read.
What are your 180s? What are you goals? I saw some listed, but they really seemed more like listing characteristics and not as much actions. I ask these to refocus because you went from "I'm detached" (been there) to "I don't think I'm as attached as I thought I was" (been there too) to "Holy crap this is absorbing me so much and draining my lifeblood" (Check - been there). DBing is about action. Look at the words used in the book, on the website, and in the forums. Your 180s and goals should be worded in such a way as well.
Some suggestions as I look through your posts:
If I were you when your W got annoyed, irritated, or whatever she was at that point in time with your sons, I would've stepped in, not waited for her to react, and consequence the children right then and there. Be the DAD. You picked a great way to intervene with the children. Now work on not waiting and act.
Call me a little biased, but I do not like that friend, and I fully admit I could be wrong. It SCREAMS of at least an EA. I keep seeing you dismiss and minimize it, not only in your thoughts but also in your words. Do you really want your wife talking to another man about her relationship with you? How many times do you hear of another man taking advantage of that weak moment in her life? How many songs are written about exactly this? Us guys seem to be programmed to swoop in and rescue the fair damsel in distress.
Control: Stop being a wet noodle. Cadet said it earlier in the thread that it really seems as though your wife is your puppet-master. I got that sense as well. I see evidence of pursuing, persuading (even though it may not seem like it to you), and approval-seeking. Have you read No More Mr. Nice Guy? I've skimmed through it and seen how it has helped some people here. It could be something to really help with your assertiveness/confidence while also working on boundary setting and communicating. You already are a strong man. Now it is time to find the tools to help you see and do it.
Detachment is a b*tch to achieve. I can tell you that it hurt me to do so, but it got easier over time. It hurt to see my W struggle with her getting behind in a car payment and losing her car insurance. It hurt to have her served divorce papers during those struggles. However, I learned that it was what she chose. I didn't choose her actions for her. I didn't choose the path she took. I am only responsible for my actions. Between sandi's list and Livestrong's Developing Detachment article, I was able to achieve (most of the time) detachment and finally breathe, focus, and really begin to change.
Ok, I think that is long enough for now! You are in a great situation where your wife is at home with you. Time to kick it into high gear and get moving forward while you have that blessing. I'll be keeping an eye on your thread and help as much as I can. By no means an expert, but if one thing helps you, then we can call it a success
R 25 years M 14 years S11 & S13 Working on it alone since Oct 2014 M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years) Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr. Next R chat Aug'17 Still together
Great to hear the changes you've brought within yourself. With that clarification it really does sound like you're moving forward in that aspect, which can be so so hard to do. I was in a very similar situation with my son, and he became my sounding board for the changes I made within myself. Eventually, after I let go, he became THE reason to change. Amazing how much that went towards drawing her back as well.
Cadet is correct that the other guy is not your focus. Your boundaries and self-respect are the important parts. It's all about what you will or will not tolerate.
Here is my thinking on which path to take. You basically have two choices: save your marriage or choose to end it. You are the one to decide, but I'll try to give some suggestions for the former.
Choosing to save it is a harder path to take. After reading your last big post, I am a bit more convinced that you really need to be that solid, strong man and father in your home with a good PMA. No doubt your wife has a significant level of resentment towards you from the depression years, which could be also affected by cultural or FOO issues as well. She will need to see consistency in your changes for however long she needs.
Read this over and over again. Print if off, put it in your wallet, put it somewhere at work. Memorize it. Originally Posted By: mutatio All we have are our actions. We must display strength, loving kindness and compassion. If they see us living well, being a great parent, treating them well, they may reconsider their position, lower their guard, second guess their resolve and open up to us. For love to flourish and grow we have to tend the garden. Good soil (our home life), water (our behavior) and plenty of sunshine (our loving kindness) is what we must provide as our wife's stabilize and recover from their emotional struggle.
Quote: And I asked her not to try convince here of anything but just to know, what she held against me or why she detached. I did not talk enough. I was bad at communicating. She felt she had to decide every thing on her own. I remember having that talk with my W right before she moved out. Worked on every single item she listed, even when she was living 2.5 hours away. Your wife's openness is a gift that gives direction. You mentioned in another post that she complained you never talk about your day. If she is open to it, do it. Start off by checking in with her and validating (DBing is life). If she is open to it, experiment with casual conversation about your day. That's talking and communicating. The parenting I mentioned in my last post is an example of deciding and doing.
What are some other things you can do?
In doing these things you can hopefully keep the door open for her and create an environment where she can feel supported.
R 25 years M 14 years S11 & S13 Working on it alone since Oct 2014 M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years) Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr. Next R chat Aug'17 Still together
First is on your mood at home. I think many have touched on this so I won't go all coo-coo about it. the biggest issue I see is that right now your wife is reaching for anything to tip her scale. if you are showing her a bad mood or lack of content with your current situation and marriage, she will see / use it as just another sign that things are done – like you want it too.
I actually remember those words come out of my wife’s mouth 3 years ago or so...It was an eye opener for me. my bad moods, sour, resentfulness, depression, anxiety - whatever it was, showed through on all that I did. I could be doing something nice for her, but the resentment shown through. And she translated it into ‘Zephyr wanted out’. Right or wrong, it was her viewpoint, right. It was the way she saw things.
If you are in a bad mood, get out. do what you have to do to re-center yourself. I think that is a huge part of the GAL strategy. you not focusing on her, rather on yourself. you not worrying about your marriage for 3 hours because you are at an entertaining show OR WHATEVER. when you leave there, be grateful for that...today was a new day...all that jazz!!!!!!!!
Hell, last night I had to leave the house, she was fighting with the boys. Once I backed her up, I didn't feel like sitting in the stew that she was brewing so I mentioned I was going to the store. While there I was unwinding, got those tears of WHAT THE PHUCK AM I DOING THIS FOR, out of my system ... re-centered and went home (besides I needed more ice creasm). you need to be able to adapt, let things slide off of your back and not allow you to be knocked off of your game. I think that a lot of the lack of communication that we've spoken about and that squiggy is touching on above, shows through here...are you willing to just 'be' and open up or are you showing your mood and shutting down (you know I speak from experience here). It is not a bad idea to try an start the conversation more, BE PRESENT and try to enjoy the interaction.
It has taken the last year for me to get my wife to the point where she tells me about her day and asks about mine (although sometimes I start by telling her about mine)...yes, it sounds like she wants to have this conversation instead of has to. It took lots of time. lots of short quippy ones or 'fines' (then done) at first (don't take the bait when she gives you the 'fine' and nothing else, you can continue on with yours or show a sign of appreciation for her at least 'trying'). If you are present and genuinely WANT to hear it instead of feel obliged to listen, it will show through and will absolutely-positively show.
It doesn't seem like your wife does a whole lot of the spew (which might make it harder to let things go when she does criticize). Who knows what she is going through, remember most of the time this sort of struggle comes from a place of hurting...so compassion; just keep in mind your attitude is contagious and WAY more obvious that we think it is at the time.
Second thing. I am going to do a divergence from my normal-normal here. I want you to think about something for a while.
Are you thinking about separation like she is? If you are, don't feel guilty about it, not judging (I never will). maybe you can go out to a nice quiet place and just think about it for a bit. No kids around. no wife, no pressure. just Roiste and a Beer or something. Think about what it will mean to you. What will be different with you and how you live your life. come up with a list of things. Look at them and then make a goal, that you are going to start to do one of those things.
Why, it is important for you to stop looking at your situation as how to / or what we can do to fix it. How is your marriage ever going to get back to where it needs to be for you to be satisfied. Remember, this...your marriage is already dead. We've read this how many times on this board, but we thought it didn't apply to us - me & you, because our wives never said those words, that they wanted a divorce. We were wrong. Our old marriage is dead.
It is time for Roiste to start moving your feet. I realize how great of a job you are doing with your GAL - Great Improvement from a year AGO, KUDOS! This is your next step. Moving forward with your life, not just finding things to do...but actually moving ahead with some kind of action.
- Your job, you've expressed how you might want to switch from being self-employed...how far have you looked at this. I realize that finances and the uncertainty are a big deal, your wife is looking for work...does this tell you something or not...might be worth talking to her about both sides of this fence...might be a great excuse to try out your desire for communication.
- have you ever spoken to a lawyer? are you a citizen of the country you live? This might be a big deal if there were to be a separation (sorry not trying to pry too deep, genuinely curious). Have you done any sort of thoughts on how to separate finances.
- have you looked at separate living arrangements, seriously go and look at a couple of apartments and see what it would feel like, even if it is looking through apartment guides with floor plans to see where you and the boys will spend Saturday night or whatever...you get where I am getting at here...try it on for size. Just go see what it would feel like walking up the stairs of a new flat.
- Social circle. I know this is difficult to do, but it is really, really important to start building that list of friends up so that we can start living our lives a little fuller. social interactions with other men, it is really a big deal to help strengthen our masculinity. it could be going to a ball-game, bar, playing pool, whatever it takes. Meetup is a neat idea to just jump in with both feet...kinda scary to widen the circle but it is a must.
These are all things you can start to do to look at what Roiste's life will be like 'IF"
While your wife is stuck, there is no reason for you to be stuck right alongside of her. There is no reason for you to sit with her and her depression, confusion, unhappiness, wallow, blah. Start the process of moving on, what will it feel like…pretty scary still.
Your wife gives me the impression that she has no idea what to do next. Are you giving her that same impression here. Are you giving her any reason to show her that you are stuck too. She is basically telling you right off right now she wants out. Now we have THOUGHT that might be what she has wanted, but you have been acting AS-IF for the interim.
Now here I am back, I am not talking about giving up. I am talking about letting some more slack out of that rope we have been holding onto so very tightly. You have done, tried, wished and hoped so much. How about taking a deep breath and letting go a bit.
Keep the focus on you and your boys (yes I realize how hard it would be if there were a split, with respect to the boys...you are not alone with this). Your wifes journey, who knows where it will lead right now...she doesn't know, you don't know. Your journey thought...you have a pretty big hand in where that will go.
With all of that said, I still believe that all of what I just typed - in conjunction with compassion, understanding, willingness to give despite receiving nothing in return...all that I've spoken about 100 times...is still fundamental in not generating more resentment and to show you still love this woman with all of faults and her dark places, it is something she may never ever thank you for, who knows though maybe she will someday.
I don't want to rehash all of this, you've got enough of THOSE kinds of posts from me to last a lifetime.
I applaud all that you've accomplished so far and await to see what you come up with!
R 25 years M 14 years S11 & S13 Working on it alone since Oct 2014 M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years) Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr. Next R chat Aug'17 Still together
Z I am glad you find strength in me and it is useful to you. I'd be curious to know more about what strength you see in me.
This is one of the easier questions you've asked...I see strength in any man or woman who continues to do what they believe is right, despite being tired, lonely or overwhelmed.
You have chosen to stand for your marriage and hold your vows to a woman who is hurting and cannot give that same back to you right now. There are not many men who would stand for their family and kids like you have even though you have been battered by this storm.
I see it as strength.
R 25 years M 14 years S11 & S13 Working on it alone since Oct 2014 M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years) Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr. Next R chat Aug'17 Still together
You're living a life and not letting W anchor you in place. You're doing what you need to do in order to be a happier, healthier you. Isn't that what GALing and this entire process is all about?
We have to be the best person we can be in order to be happy with ourselves. When each person brings that to the table, successful M happens. Your W sees that, roast, I promise you she does.
If she's joining you guys for outings, that should say something, right?
Like I said before, You are doing great! Your M or your W maybe hasn't come around, but you are in a better place for you and your boys right now!
R 25 years M 14 years S11 & S13 Working on it alone since Oct 2014 M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years) Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr. Next R chat Aug'17 Still together
It changes YOU and that is how it works. Basically you get more of what you put your focus on. It only takes one to change the dynamics in a R. Our W's have proven that! , In an R, we are clouded by our negative thoughts. We are sad, we are resentful, we are angry. This affects our behavior and interactions. Imagine if we felt only love and gratitude. Automatically our thinking and ultimately our demeanor will radiate that. I would bet your negative feelings about what you are enduring show through. This could help break that cycle.This is not about ozing love and appreciation on your W but using those emotions to feel better. Achieve that and you show a better you, which can do no harm.
I have over simplified the concept and yes I have doubts too, but being a happier person and showing that to the world can only be positive. I do believe in the power of appreciation/gratitude and how it can help PMA .
Worst case scenario you try for a month and review. If it does not help, you can cross it off the list of things you tried. For me it is important to be able to look my sons in the eye and say I tried everything.I don't feel I have tried everything so I keep going.
To counter everything I just said I know that I can not rebuild my M unless my W comes on board and nothing I do can force that to happen. But maybe the work I am doing on me will tempt her. Regardless I like the new me better and better. And anything that helps PMA, happiness etc can only be beneficial even if only for me.
R 25 years M 14 years S11 & S13 Working on it alone since Oct 2014 M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years) Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr. Next R chat Aug'17 Still together
In regards to your children, I think that what they see has more impact then what they hear. Your behavior towards your wife and kids over time will have much greater impact then the one conversation. Your kids live in the house and pick up on much more then you could imagine. If they see you treat your wife well, with loving kindness that will buoy them through a few overheard unsettling conversations. Show them what a real man does in the face of disaster. Be strong
R 25 years M 14 years S11 & S13 Working on it alone since Oct 2014 M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years) Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr. Next R chat Aug'17 Still together
I realised that I was not being my potential and definitely not showingthe best me at all times. I was making good progress but was being held back by negative emotions.
I am not questioning these emotions as not being justified. I: understand why I felt them and agree with the logic. But they were nit helping me
So by focusing on more positive stuff, including appreciation, I am more positive.This helps me. I am pulled down less by unmet needs and bad moods (hers).
I feel better about me and the world. I am still aware of my situation and it still weighs. But I can shine regardless.
Plus if I react positively to a negative interaction with W, it diffuses its power and does not spiral.
And yes it shows W a better me. I don't have time to explain this better but I hope this answers your question.
R 25 years M 14 years S11 & S13 Working on it alone since Oct 2014 M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years) Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr. Next R chat Aug'17 Still together
For some time now I have been wanting to sit down and really review my situation. The positives the negatives. The changes, the still the same. But I don't seem to allow myself the time to do so. Some days I don't see the point, others I think it could depress me and then there are days I want to but I don't have the time. Somehow I thought it was important to do but maybe subconsciously I don't. Strange. I'll have to explore that reasoning deeper. I am getting interested in such thought patterns, a sign I am expanding my thinking.
I am on this site a year next week. I'm working on saving my M over a year & a half. We have not been right (& sexless) for over three years. I came here after viewing Michelle's video on the WAW.
Sometimes I think there is progress albeit superficial. At times my W seems more sharing of her thoughts, seems less distant, is more open, body language less closed off. There are lots of little signs. BUT equally present are the negative signs.
I don't think she is any closer to either leaving or improving us. She is lost and her outlook on almost everything is down.LLast night I had the certitude that this is mlc. Certitude may not be the right word, as it was more a feeling than a thought. This is probably true and it scared my to think how much longer it could go on for.
The only thing that I am sure of is that this is going to last a while yet. Without this site and my cyber friends here I would have given up a long time ago. So thank ye all.
I do wonder though if my giving up is really what could turn this around. It was exactly that that helped me overcome depression and start wanting to work on my M. So I know it works. Unfortunately W wasn't DBing me!
One day it may come to that. And after that LRT. But for now there is loads of other stuff for me to do. Today I reread my threads to review the good advice I have gotten and to review my objectives. I have come a long way but I am not yet the man I want to be. I have work to do.
Recently I have done a lot of research into CBT, positive thinking, realistic thinking as well as gratitude. Powerful stuff.
Sometimes I feel I am only distracting myself by filling my head with such stuff. But I hope that this will help me going forward and the bonus is that I am not dwelling on worse stuff.
Back to gratitude. For those of you looking to self improve it is worth some research time. I avoid doing a gratitude journal but that is a personal choice.
Each night laying in bed with W, I list in my head all the positive interactions,signs and just good points about her/us. Some days are easier than others! The theory is that by focusing on gratitude/positive points, the subconscious mind will automatically search for more. With the unconscious mind we will see stuff that otherwise we would miss. But basically you should focus on what you have and not what you are missing.
Another similar concept that helps is to focus on what you want rather than on what you don't want. Again it is because the unconscious mind will seek out whatever you focus on. So work towards a better M/R rather than on away from a bad one.
I find the next generation my sons included not v grateful or appreciative for what they have. So most nights I ask my sons to tell me three things that they liked about their day.
Another idea I like is to carry a stone in your pocket and every time you see/feel it, stop to think of something you are grateful for.
OK that is the end of my lesson for today. Have a good weekend
R 25 years M 14 years S11 & S13 Working on it alone since Oct 2014 M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years) Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr. Next R chat Aug'17 Still together
I'm here a year now. Occasions seem to be ruined/tarnished by this situation. I seem to dwell on my situation whenever there is am occasion and this inevitably affects to some extent that occasion.
I bought my first marriage program on Dec 24th. I signed up here two days before my birthday last year. Other dates that are significant to me/us were also triggers.So here I am again.
I have used this time to look deep and work on me. I have taken countless actions. But this weekend I felt exactly like I did 18 months ago when thisall came to light. The trigger was my boys.They are a handful at times. One of my wife's biggest critics of me was how I spoke to them, apparently always aggressive/annoyed. I had worked on that and made god progress but realised this weekend that I was doing this.
Not only was this one of my first actions/180s, it is probably the most important to me. My sons bring out feelings in me that I wish I never felt. At times they are infuriating. But I don't blame them. I think that it is surely down to how we raised them. We are good loving parents but I assume we have lacked a parenting skill that could help.
For me our M problems are directly implicated. Like many of our issues in life I think that we have the same frustrations but we are travelling the same path against them but separately. That is evident to me and yet I seem powerless to do anything about it. Plus I am sure that I would be less stressed with my sons if I wasn't in this situation.
I am sure that if my W left tomorrow that after sorting the practicalities I could develope a healthier R with my boys that brings out the best in us all. So why can't I seem to do that NOW. I need to figure that out. Have I some irrational thinking style that is blocking me? Is R with W really the cause or why do I think we cannot work together on this? I need to figure this out.
But I don't want to wait until W leaves or reconnects.II have been listening t a lot of parenting videos recently and am formulating a solution. This is my priority for now. My R with my sons is far from toxic but I want to make sure it is less confrontational. Since coming out of my depression I have done a lot with my sons. Our R is pretty good most of the time.
I probably painted a blacker picture than it is but it is important to me. I am going to try form a team effort with W to tackle this.She too gets very frustrated with them at times.
That is one of two big projects for me. The other is my job or rather money. My company is doing OK and we are not struggling like we were a while back. The advantages of being self employed are many and the flexible hours really suit my mindset. But maybe more money and guaranteed income is more important at this stage. I am looking into it but not rushed.If I get a good offer I'll take it. If not I'm OK for now.
But once I am happy with my R with boys and job, I see myself reviewing my situation with the aim to deciding whether to keep standing.Ultimately I know I will decide enough is enough.
Ironically the more work I do on myself the better I like myself.And the more I like myself the less I am willing to put up with. With the exception of my kids any other R in my life I could walk away from if it was not benefiting me. Maybeit will come to that with my W.
R 25 years M 14 years S11 & S13 Working on it alone since Oct 2014 M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years) Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr. Next R chat Aug'17 Still together
