WAS or what (recap for me)

[roist]

Posted by Mutation 21/11/2015

R, understandably you are attached to your wife and your marriage, we all are. I read this and connected with it, maybe it will help you see it from a different angle. This is an example to illustrate attachment that I love:

"In the South of India, people used to catch monkeys in a very special way. Actually they let monkeys catch themselves. What they did is cutting a small hole in a coconut, just large enough for a monkey to put its hand in. Next, you fix the coconut to a tree, and fill it with a sweet. The monkey smells the sweet, squeezes its hand into the coconut, grabs the sweet and .... finds that the fist does not fit through the hole. Now the trick is, that the last thing the monkey will think of is to let go of the sweet; and it holds itself prisoner. Nothing could be easier for a human being who comes and catches it."

This is what we do to ourselves after BD. Please consider letting go to free yourself. The sweet will still be there if you let go.

[roist]

Posted by Anacaire 05/01/2015

Roiste - I've been going through various threads and trying to offer support - but I'm often at a loss for words. This morning I found the following gem on the MLC threads, and I'm sharing it wherever I think it may help. It certainly helped me take a step back and redefine what I'm trying to accomplish. I hope it helps you, too.
Originally Posted By: ericmsant2


Consider the DB basic principals....

1) Healthy boundaries.
2) Better communication
3) GAL
4) "act as if"
5) Change how you look at things
6) Keep a positive outlook
7) Personal growth
8) Learning more about you so that you can be all that you can be.
9) Learning to avoid "cheese less tunnels"
10) Love and respect

These principals can be used in all facets of ones life. When used properly....they truly can change you from the INSIDE OUT.

[roist]

Posted 7 jan 16

Thanks Mowgli,

Maybe it is just slower.Time will tell. Either she comes around and things improve or one of us will move towards getting out. Both are better than status quo. Que sera sera. Whatever will be will be. Wrongly or rightly I believe that if M fails, destiny means for me to have a better one with someone else. Down the road I know I will have a full rewarding R.

In the meantime I am trying to focus on me. This is hard because we are still almost a couple and the parts missing are flagrant. There are so many advantages of having her still here, and I appreciate it, none of it is important without intimacy (emotional or otherwise).

Earlier I mentioned the tool to change character traits well here are my two lists. The traits I am working on changing are
1. low self esteem,
2. Indecisive/ unsure what to do
3. A pleaser putting my needs last.
4. Doubter/pessimist
5. Communication. Keep everything to myself.

The traits I am working towards are:
1. Assertive/confident
2. Decisive
3. Optimist.PMA
4. Empathize, validate,
5. emotionally open

My third list of my good traits is:
1 determination... don't give up
2 faithful
3 honest
4 willing to try
5 reliable

I have already started working on this, but if anyone has any comments or suggestion esp on stuff to help me make these changes,
ii am ready to listen.

I have a more detailed list of actions and goals to back this up. Included are some R goals. Early on I tried a lot of stuff, but we seem gradually worse at times but not hopeless. The longer limbo lasts the harder it is for me to see it turning around.But I am going to refind my beginners mind and experiment again. Again suggestions welcome.

I am also spending much less time on the couch with W. I am doing sport, working, DIY, phoning, etc. I am GAL.

[roist]

Posted by Cadet 07/01/2016

Here is my opinion about having a chat like this.

Can you do it with NO EXPECTATIONS, calmly and rationally?

Until two people want to have a relationship and meet each others needs it is unlikely that this chat will have much success.

Love is a Choice and both people must choose to DO it.

DB'ing is about speaking with ACTIONS and not words,
controlling ourselves and not someone else.

So before you DO this what do you think will be the results?

So what if during your "chat" wife was to reveal to you that she is depressed, has cancer, was in a coma, has a life threatening disease, mental illness, thyroid condition or some other reason that she can no longer perform.

How would that change the way you feel and what you would DO?

[roist]

Posted by Cadet 11/01/2016

Sounds like your wife controls what you do and she needs time and space so maybe you should make more plans to take the boys out of her space.

[roist]

Posted 21/01/16

Earlier I mentioned the tool to change character traits well here are my two lists. The traits I am working on changing are 1. low self esteem, 2. Indecisive/ unsure what to do 3. A pleaser putting my needs last. 4. Doubter/pessimist 5. Communication. Keep everything to myself.

The traits I am working towards are: 1. Assertive/confident 2. Decisive 3. Optimist.PMA 4. Empathize, validate, 5. emotionally open.

Many here have worked on themselves and their characteristics.I have repeated mine here again. Firstly to remind me where I need to focus but also to ask for any tips, insights, info, tools, etc that could help me transform myself.

I am making headway to some extent on much of this. I am more confident. I am not as assertive as I want but I am less passive. This will take time as I don't want to be assertive just to be assertive. As I progress with my path this will become clearer.
I am making more decisions, not letting W decide everythingbut to be fair she does involve me mostly in decisions and stuff esp related to kids.

I am optimistic about the future. My pma is better but definitely could be better, but I am working on that. I am not optimistic about having a fulfilling R with W, but I think it is still a possibility. I have not given up, but I accept where we are.

Anyway without outlining all my little details, the point of this post is to search new ideas to help me rebuild Roiste2.0

[roist]

Posted by Zephyr 29 jan 16

Hey roiste, dont have a ton of time this week so i will try to keep this short (uh-oh, zephyr posts never = short)

The letter is a tricky one. Do you need to get thst all off of your chest or so you want to break through her ice somehow. Maybe both. If you could write this to help your healing and progress, with absolutely no expectatuins for anything coming of it, then fine.

Else just write it out and burn it. That is where it will do most good...is you putting pencil to paper.

I have an odd question...when was the last time you did something phun together? Spontaneous (ya is hard with kids and jobs and life).

Is there a way you could just get a sitter for a coupke of hours and go out to a club or dancing or sonethung. Tell her, look...i know things have been strained...i would love to just go out and BE. If she doesnt want to go. You shoukd go anyway.

Just an example...i dint know what your W likes to do. There were a couple of outing where my 'live in roomate mother of my children who wanted nothing to do with me' did go out with me. There was an expression she used, "i dont want to give you the wrong idea about this."

I took it as 'i will go but dont expect to get any' so maybe you can get out in front of that and say something along those lines, take some of the pressure off of the decision and just go out.

It will do a couple of things. Shows her

You are a fun guy
You want more from her than just sex
You are able to plan and lead
You are interested in her having fun too

Either way go out and have a good time.

Now this might not be the best advice for everyone, but at this point you are workng towards a stalemate and need to sacrifice a pawn to continue this game. It is not a matter of win -lose, just moving forward off of the standstill.

Light and breezy, no talk of future, if she says yes and something along the lines of this doesnt mean 'insert WAW crap speak' just reply, of course not i just wwnt to go out and have a good time.

Last one, i know your pain and struggles are taking a toll on you...how much of that shows through on yhe times you do have interactions? How much of that soarkling PMA is available when you are really fuming or disappointed or focusing on the struggle.

I sometimes catch myself in the car with just the two of us just sitting in sikence. Inam in the middle of thought about something, anything coukd be marriage coykd be something else...but sikence between us. I have to recenter and bring myself back into the fold. Try to stsrt a conversatiin with her...jibberish, nonsense, try to sing along with the radio to break that silence, i start laughing out load about a joke i heard thst fay, ask her what she is reading lately. It is kind of a breach in the 37, i guess...but not really. We are trying to BUILD communication.

[roist]

Posted by Mutatio 29 jan 2016

All we have are our actions. We must display strength, loving kindness and compassion. If they see us living well, being a great parent, treating them well, they may reconsider their position, lower their guard, second guess their resolve and open up to us. For love to flourish and grow we have to tend the garden. Good soil (our home life), water (our behavior) and plenty of sunshine (our loving kindness) is what we must provide as our wife's stabilize and recover from their emotional struggle.

[roist]

Posted 30/01/16

This risks being a long one. I am journaling to record my thoughts/events as much as to get feedback.

For the first time in months my W met with inappropriate friend today. I don't know if they were alone but I do know it was relatively short and I am 100% sure they just talked. I was told they would be meeting in advance by W. Long story short this ate away at me while she was gone.When she came back I didn't know how to react so I withdrew into myself.

I was not proud of not knowing how to react and how I withdrew.SSo when we went to bed I defended myself by attacking! I asked her why she ignored me all night. She was very surprised by my question as she thought I was ignoring her
And this is how our first R talk in almost a year to the day started

I said I was tired, a bit sick and had had a few drinks and almost excused myself out of talking. But that screamed of typical avoidance that I was guilty of earlier in our M. She encouraged me to rest if I was tired and I almost did. But I didn't want to take the easy way out even if she said we could talk about it another time.

I asked her if she discussed us and she said not really.I asked her to look me: n the eyes and reply again.She reiterated not really.This is the only the only time I doubted her words. I said it is not normal to chat with another guy and definitely not OK to chat about marital problems especially without speaking to H/me about it. She said we must have different definitions of friends if it is not for that. I said we definitely have different definitions of a couple if private stuff is talked about outside the couple and not inside it.

Although some of what I said was fairly firm, everything was said calmly and as a discussion not an argument.

Anyway this lead into R part of the conversation. Again I almost ended it to obey the rules here. But how am I ever going to convince her or me that I am capable of such communication if I never try. I was mindful of the rules, guidelines and advice here and I think I was pretty damn good at abiding by them, apart from the no R talk rule that is!

I validated a lot. I expressed myself well, but concentrated on W and not me. The only time I mentioned my feelings was when I said it was hard to try to talk to someone detached. The conversation wasn't in English so detached is the closest translation to the word we used. She admitted being detached and being so for a long time. I asked if she wanted to stay detached and she said she did not know. I was not needy or pressuring when asking.

This brought us to the part where she saw no solution.I said calmly there is always a solution, one way or another.I acknowledged how hard that must be for her, but I did not pursue any solution.

I took advantage of the moment to express my feelings about when I was home when my dad was dying. She thanked me , acknowledged I should have done what I did and played down my absence.

We chatted a bit more. And I asked her not to try convince here of anything but just to know, what she held against me or why she detached. I did not talk enough. I was bad at communicating. She felt she had to decide every thing on her own. I accepted these, added that when I was depressed I wasn't capable of more, but I am now. I did not try to convince her of this as that is something to observe rather than be told. I did not apologize but I acknowledged that it would not have been easy when I was depressed.

We chatted more. And at the end I was unsure how to play it going forward d, so I wondered about that. There was no real answer as I guess neither of us know.But I preferred mention it instead of ignore it.

I also stated that regardless I do not regret our story together.She said she doesn't either, especially our boys. I again acknowledged her part in raising them. She has been great.

Yes I did a lot of acknowledging. This was more me verbalizing what I thought than trying to compliment her.

I told her that although some of our conversation was not nice to hear, I was glad that we spoke.SShe said she was too. Actually I did not find any of the conversation hard to hear. I took no pleasure from her saying she was detached but I knew that anyway.

Maybe tomorrow when I reread these words or when I rethink about this I may be more affected, but for now I am v calm and detached.

My W was calm, was human and never critical or judgemental during this exchange. It was good. I don't know if anything changes after this.But I outlined in details so ye can advise.

After sleep and rereading the only change I would like to make to what I posted is that instead of speaking of her as detached, checked out is a better translation of what we said.

[roist]

Posted 31/01/16

Mut,

Rightly or wrongly I did not go down the solution path during our discussion so I don't know where we are going or if it has changed anything. She does seem to believe that there is no solution.I guess I would mindread that she has no romantic feelings for me but does not envisage leaving.So I guess she is trapped in a hopeless situation. For me the solution is blatently apparent and is a simple choice.But that has to come from her.

It could have gone a lot worse, that is for sure.

Going forward I hope to build on this.I will work on my talking and communicating, but as I told her it is not possible to communicate with someone who is not receptive or who is checked-out. She checked out because I couldn't talk/communicate enough. Now we have reversed roles and I gave up trying because she was checked out.

It makes sense to me to work on the three points she outlined.That is my first action from this. But I think that was the issue two years ago.Now that she is checked out perfecting those things may not make the slightest difference.

I really would like feedback on what others think, esp as to what my next steps should include.

So far today there has been no negative fallout and exchanges have been good and light.

And yes I got to say some of the stuff I thought should have been said,
so I feel better for that