Lost in Fangorn Forest

[Zues126]

What I described as a good or great relationship, requires both parties to be able to recognize their own needs and talk about them in a way that the other person can understand.

Unfortunately, many women (and men) are not comfortable doing that. I remember seeing a male counselor earlier in our marriage, who told me that my needs and - you can call it requirements - from H were reasonable and normal, and that I didn't do what many women do, which is expect him to guess what I need and feeling like it doesn't count if I had to tell him.

Unfortunately, he didn't explain to me how h could feel it was criticism when I expressed my needs.

And nobody can fulfill someone else's needs all the time, every day. There will be ups and downs. But if you can fairly regularly fulfill a few important needs for the other person, even if it is just listening - women really want to be listened to and validated, and I think that's one of the hardest things for men to do, because they feel it's either criticism or something they need to fix - I think that's replenishing the clue that holds you together.

Of course you are afraid of being hurt again! It would be very strange if you were not. I am, too. I doubt very much that I will ever experience this relationship that I think can exist.

Thanks Painter.

To add in one more hurdle, it's the 'deal breakers'. I think in most people's mind it works like this: I want this, I expect this, but these things are deal breakers: a, b, c, d, etc.

When I read your description of an ideal marriage I nod, but then I remember that even if I did all of that, my partner would find a deal breaker and call it a day.

If I was a marriage counselor my motto would be: suck it up and live with the deal breakers.

Because here's the thing. There is no perfect marriage. There is no marriage that has good times, bad times, mutual communication, and somehow magically avoids the deal breakers.

Good marriages exist, though rare, but even still, there are deal breakers. But with committed spouses, divorce is a bigger deal breaker.

Getting back to DB theory, so I'm not altogether off on my own path, Michelle talks about how couples that stay together argue about the same things endlessly. At what point do you just shrug and accept that's the way it is? I think that's a requirement for marriage.

For example, I have made it clear that a fulfilling sex life is a requirement for me to not be miserable in my marriage. But I would never have left, even if we never made love again. Because there's one thing worse than a miserable marriage. Divorce. I really believe that people need to stay together. And if they do, then even if people have to accept some deal breakers, at least the underlying presence of a committed person throughout your lifetime is there. And who knows, maybe in 5 years things change. I've seen that happen, but it can't happen if you're writing off your spouse and jumping into the next relationships hoping for a better 'match'.

People that say "I wouldn't want someone to have to stay in a horrible marriage", I say BS. Everyone feels their marriage is horrible a lot of the time. Everyone feels that applies to them. Everyone thinks they are in the 2% that has to leave, that their spouse is the one that is immature and incapable of growth and change and consideration, that is abusive, etc. Obviously anyone would be better than that. Except that this is the same story. Shoot, on these forums I've read thousands of threads, everyone's ex had deal breaker characteristics.

Which is why I am starting to think Sunny isn't a real woman, she's like some artificial intelligence algorithm designed by the forums to give me the illusion that people like her are still out there in the world. When she said that she'd still stay in her marriage, I was like, 'wow, IC may not get it, but I DO'. It's not because you want to, it's because that's what we're here to do in our lives. Couple, raise kids, and exist as a family.'

So another reason I'm pessimistic, is that I'm confident that I bring deal breakers into any relationship with any woman. I'm not sure what they'll be. But they'll be there. If I'm lucky she'll know right away. If I'm not she won't know for 5 years, and it will take another 10 for her resentment to build up until she punts me and explains that she doesn't believe in divorce but we're not compatible because all she wants is a man that doesn't have this deal breaker.

As far as I'm concerned anyone that wants to be in a relationship with me needs to sign up for an antisocial abusive angry unstable destitute disrespectful alcoholic pornographic vulgar gambling degenerate that puts her absolute last. If she can handle that then let's get married, then maybe she'll be pleasantly surprised. Maybe.

Oh, my, I think I may have gotten carried away again...

Love you guys. If I stay sane through this, and that is to be determined, you each get an assist.