the road goes ever on and on...

[SH_]

Zues,

You are not alone in your line of thinking. I have said many times through my M that I would do it only one time, and in my heart I know I meant it.
Your view on the family values in our society has merit based on statistics and many folks that I know. It is sad.
One thing that digs at me the most in my sitch is recalling my WAW's father telling me to not bring her back when I asked him for permission to marry his daughter. And then he is one of the bigger influences to her in leaving me and filing for the D. This is a man that claims family is the most important thing to him. But I try to forgive as I have no idea what stories she has shared with him or claimed that I have done.

Anyway thank you for the message today. It is one that many of us feel at this time. I do deserve the right to let time shape me and if there is " the one" out there, then I will pray for divine guidance to know they will be as committed as I am. But for now the fresh wounds remind me that trusting that fully may be more difficult than I would be willing to do.


Have a good day my friend and may you find joy in something around you.

[Ralph88]

Funny thing about family. If they are not pro marriage, then the are anti marriage. My father in law was TOTALY against my WW bailing in the beginning. Then I overheard him saying to be you are perfect in every way baby girl. I will always tell me daughters the truth and but will not sugar coat marriage, especially when kids are involved. Oh, the FIL was the MIL OM while she was ending her second M.

[SunnyB]

Absolutely Sunny.
Maybe someday I can follow the herd, abandon my beliefs, and endorse the idea of a series of 5-10 year relationships that end with betrayal and abandonment citing escape from abuse and framing it as a positive experience due to the ensuing personal growth. But at this time that seems totally appalling to me and I don't feel this world offers what I'm looking for.

Zues, sweetie, you are so black and white (said with much affection and a good dose of humor). I would never try to persuade you otherwise.

[JujuB]

Zues

I am having trouble understanding, what specifically about the women's lib movement you believe has contributed to the breakdown of family and divorce?

Is it the women's lib movement or loss of real wages since women returned to work that you feel contributes to divorce?

Do you want people to stay together simply because it would be too much of a hardship to leave? Or because it would be a social taboo?

Or perhaps stay together because of an inherent and understood value of loyalty, committment and family that the individual partner has?

[Ralph88]

I would never think that people should Stay in an unhealthy marriage, nor one that they are truly unhappy, but on the opposite spectrum, our society is all about tossing anything that takes work, is damaged, or you just don't want anymore. That is bs, life isn't a box of chocolates, things are always better if you have to work on it. Now if you generally put in the work, and it's not working, so be it. But most of us are here, because we were in a semi normal descent R then something shinier presented itself an then our S bailed, on a M a family and totally destroyed everything in their path. If that is how our society advocates for healthy people and treatment of others, the boo on our society.

[JujuB]

One more post and then I promise, I will stop stalking

You once wrote to me..." I'd make peace with the loss before I shot so that I no longer had the fear, I would say to myself "hey, on the way to the world championship you're going to miss a lot of key shots, and this might be one of them. But if you overcome the fear of those setbacks and focus on giving your best to each opportunity you'll someday get there"

Maybe you are not doomed, to being alone or to accepting a world of 5 to 10 year relationships. Maybe this is just a time for you to accept and make peace with loss. I think you will one day have what you truly want.

Best of wishes always

J

[Painter]

I also told my H (before we got married), 'I only marry once'. I reminded him of that when he wanted to S. He said never wanted another D. But I guess my chances were 50/50 and his were more like 10/90 (with 4 previous M).

I've been thinking about Zues' statements about M being like prostitution - it always upsets me to hear that because it sounds like women are taking advantage of men - and I realized it's mostly men who seem to want it that way. These men - like my H - want free access to sex, a hot meal, a clean house and not have to deal with hassles. Like Donald Trump said, "I work hard at my job, I don't want to come home and have to work on my relationship, too."

This is probably exactly why most women initiate D - they don't want to live like that. They want companionship, quality time, etc. I didn't want all the stuff my H bought - I wanted us to spend the money on going away for a weekend instead. He wanted to be left alone (except when he didn't).

[Zues126]

Shoot, I suppose I should try to respond to all of this now! Thanks for the replies, seriously.

Painter, first off I appreciate you being conversational when I get a bit out of line. I will admit that I have some personality tendencies, all or nothing is one, expansive thinking is another. All forms of distorted thinking I'm learning to manage.

I don't stand by my statement comparing marriage to prostitution. For one thing, it never dawned on me that in a traditional marriage that women were taking advantage of men. I always saw it as two different types of creatures with different needs and desires partnering in a way that both could be fulfilled. The man being the one to provide the opportunity for the woman to nurture the young ones. The theory being that men are wired to crave reproduction, and women are wired to crave the stability and protection to raise the young. So I always thought from a gender stand point that while women and men were equal, that didn't mean that we don't have different needs, priorities, or natural tendencies, and that both genders complimented each other. So before going further I'll say that the mention of prostitution was one I repeated without really buying into. What I was really saying is that if this is the deal in a traditional marriage then the larger amount of WAW's could stem from them still getting their basic needs met (stability and provisions for them and the children) and men not getting their basic needs met (sex) in a post divorce setting. Obviously people's needs are much more diverse in practice.

I think any fear I've had of the women's lib movement is that if this model is cast out, I don't know where I fit in. As women don't need men for protection or stability, and the idea of being expected to provide sexually is becoming a social indignation, I feel useless and ashamed of my needs.

When you say 'men seem to want it that way' I can only speak for myself when I say "YES". NOT that I want to simply pay for sex, but that I do want a way in which I can have my sexual needs validated and satisfied. Not to say my only contribution of a marriage is money, frankly I longed for more quality time and companionship as well, but only because I would've done about anything for a partner that understood my physical needs and cared for me enough to prioritize them.

Make no mistake, I support women's lib. Does it impact marriage rates, I have no idea. If anything I've more wondered about the implementation. I absolutely stand behind the idea that women should have the right to choose any path they want, with no legal or social barriers in their way. The legal part is the easy part it seems. What's hard is to understand what is society's oppression and resistance to change, versus natural differences between genders. Say women are only 30% of a given field. How do we determine if there is discrimination or oppression at work, versus natural predisposition for different roles? I don't know. And I think there is a lot of confusion about that, and about what a marriage should look like, and what are reasonable expectations from each other, etc. That confusion doesn't come just from women's lib either, it comes from the information age, the exposure to so many different ideas and beliefs, and much more evolution, much of which is positive and necessary. I just think that the resulting confusion has negatively impacted the marriage rate.

Maybe that's a good thing. I mean, if long lasting relationships can only form under extreme duress in poverty situations when people aren't free to choose their own paths in life, then maybe the institution of marriage is a worthy sacrifice.

But in the end I don't get all of this, it's beyond my scope, and it's out of my control. I just have to come back to this. Is there a partner I can find a similar vision with, in terms of validating our differences, remaining committed to both doing everything possible to thrive as a team, and to staying together even if it doesn't work so that best case we figure it out down the road and worst case we preserve our underlying love? Is this an expansive idealistic distorted notion that I need to let go? Or am I assessing things correctly that, distorted or not, this is what I would require to want to partner again, and it's just not there. That if the consensus is to order pizza with anchovies and mushrooms which I don't care for, then not eating pizza is my best choice.

Hey guys, I've already admitted that while I'm totally fine day to day, I'm shattered in my soul about the loss of my marriage, and while after a couple of years I am starting to think that won't ever change, I also realize that I don't know where I'll be in 5-10 years either. I'm not making any vows before God about swearing off relationships.

Oh, as to Juju's question about accepting loss as part of the journey, all I can say is some things can't be replaced. I will never have the marriage I wanted or believed in. "You don't get a second chance, life is no Nintendo game".

Finally, I think there was a question about how preoccupied I was prior to my D. No, I wasn't nearly as involved with social tendencies. I mean, I heard the marriage stats and thought it was horrible, I was disgusted by the betrayals and cheapening behavior I saw, but ultimately I had the naive idea that only applied to those that weren't as passionately and profoundly committed as I was. Now I realize that I am in a very small minority, and as it takes two such minorities to connect, the divorce epidemic applies to nearly everyone. So at first I was on the DB forums a lot fighting for my M, then for support and companionship and to give back. Now I want to do what I can to prepare to lead my children through this crazy changing world, and to cast my vote towards lifelong partnerships, even if that is antiquated and mine is the only ballot in that box.

[JujuB]

Oh, as to Juju's question about accepting loss as part of the journey, all I can say is some things can't be replaced. I will never have the marriage I wanted or believed in. "You don't get a second chance, life is no Nintendo game".

.

Sorry Zeus. I didn't mean to make peace with loss of your marriage or time with children. I couldn't do that.

I meant peace with not having a future relationship that endures and accepting that loss.

That's what I thought you meant by your description of preparing to take a shot during a competition....That you would mentally be at peace with that failure first before you actually took the chance at a shot.

Maybe I misunderstood or am having trouble wording.

Good luck with your upcoming busy weeks.

[Ggrass]

I think your assement of 50/50 for you and 10/90 for him....

Kind of explains my r, he married but once. He placed all the Balme on the other party being guilty that being me. He told me o didn't work hard enough to make it work.

Says more about the sort of person they are, they think there is no work and all fun times. Xh2 even allowed his mum to weigh in and deem me unfit same as she did with the first wife. They called her immature and useless. Me I according to my mil a wanton woman and the affair woman. Now I think she might have been right, but at the time I knew no different, only what I was told.

If I had looked more closely at the actions of the parties then I might have made different choices.