Ups and downs (II)

[JujuB]

Zues, I understand what your saying. My husband definatly feels like that regarding working. He is a workaholic (to the point where it's unhealthy for him) and I was a helicopter mom (to a point that wasn't good for anyone)

From the female perspective, kids are an extension of us. Something we created together. Me being a great mother to our son was for him as well.

I wish we had used a DB coach instead of our marital counselor. I think we needed that type of advise back then.

[Zues126]

From the female perspective, kids are an extension of us. Something we created together. Me being a great mother to our son was for him as well.

And from my male perspective, kids were a sacrifice that I allowed, giving up my free time and taking on responsibilities, to give children to my wife that she wanted, and then to work tireless to provide for them all, in HOPES that she would reciprocate by asking what I wanted in my life. Which never happened, because she decided for me what I wanted in my life, which according to her happened to be by startling coincidence what she wanted, which was to neglect me and spend all of her time on the kids 'out of love' for me.

Many years later I am fine with having children and am glad they are in my life. But starting a family was something I did for her and I definitely felt betrayed and extremely taken advantage of. In fact, the D made sense to me, she already had my sperm and laws to get my money, that seemed to be all she ever wanted. That's how it felt during the M, and it's sure how it looked after BD. Wouldn't surprise me if that's one of the reasons WAH was so hurt by the child support.

I won't speak for all men, but I can tell you that I had children because my W wanted

Agreed! Mission impossible!

[JujuB]

I know many men that do want children to carry on their name and genes. I think most men and women are not prepared for the amount of work that is really required though. I also think that culturally and socially we are really at a huge disadvantage.

Ever see the documentary "babies"? I watched it years ago, and remember noting how happy everyone was in the tribal society in which the kids all played together and were raised by the whole family unit.

In my situation, you are absolutely correct. the reason why husband suggested we go to counseling was because he felt after comment I made, that all I cared about was conceiving. (Funny thing is I made comment because I felt like he was putting work ahead of intimacy)

[Painter]

My DB Coach told me the same thing about working full time. She said that guys that worked a lot of hours and paid all the bills felt that they did 'their part' in the relationship. But that it wasn't really doing things for their wife. She challenges them by asking "If you weren't married anymore, would you stop working?" Since the answer was no she claimed it didn't really count the way we think it does. She told me the same was true for stay at home moms. If they weren't M, would they stop taking care of the kids? Of course not. It's for the family, it's contributing, but it's not for your partner the same way.

Just trying to help bridge the gap. It's not always about effort. Little things that are missing can be big things, and big things aren't enough without the little things too. This is coming from a guy that pretty much thought working hard was doing my part.

I said that to H when he said his part was to work and provide. He worked hard and his job is his #1 priority (he has told me straight out that it is more important than our M) - and I said the same thing: He worked before we M, he's not going to stop now. He loves working because he gets great satisfaction from it. It's easier to do well at work than in a R, because the rules are much more straightforward.

[Painter]

One of H's big gripes is that I didn't want to have children... He feels that I thought he wasn't good enough for me. (I did explain to him why not, but he heard what he wanted to hear, I guess.) We both already had children and I was almost 40, he was past his mid-40's. At the time, he said it was up to me and he's be good either way.

All our posts just confirm to me over and over that open conversation and honesty is key in relationships.

[JksD]

My DB Coach told me the same thing about working full time. She said that guys that worked a lot of hours and paid all the bills felt that they did 'their part' in the relationship. But that it wasn't really doing things for their wife. She challenges them by asking "If you weren't married anymore, would you stop working?" Since the answer was no she claimed it didn't really count the way we think it does. She told me the same was true for stay at home moms. If they weren't M, would they stop taking care of the kids? Of course not. It's for the family, it's contributing, but it's not for your partner the same way.

Food for thought. I must admit that I have always thought and still think that taking care of the family is a way of showing love. But I understand that it's not the type of love xh understands, even if he had always been quick to get angry when things were not up to his standards.

I do, however, bristle at his suggestion that kid and I were financial burdens on him. Ever since I have gone back to work, I have paid for more than the fair share of bills. But I didnt keep score. Apparently, he did while ignoring my contributions. And misrepresented me to his folks. Which was why it hurt to the core when kid came back one day two months post BD and told me that TP was rich and she and xh shared their money.

Insert swear words here. Seriously, I think they meant sharing her late h's money equally. What I have got, I earned it myself. What she's got, the bulk of it came from the late h.

Okay, sorry for hijacking and venting.

[JujuB]

Jksd

Continue to hijack and vent. I relate to your anger at the unfairness of your situation. The irrationality of husband and his inability to simply be fair.

I am coming to terms with the fact that I cannot get through to husband. He thinks what he thinks and has no motivation to commpromise. I am often questioning myself because his arguments are so unfair. But you know what? It really doesn't matter. I'm gonna do what's best for me and try not to even think about it.

I went out with group of friends last night. Had an OK time. Friday went to a divorce care meeting which was interesting. Very nice group but not sure if i am going to keep going. Have great plans for next weekend as well

One thing i realized..In my divorce care group many of the women are devastated because they are losing so much. Huge hones, fancy cars, financial stability. I had none of that to begin with. The first time I asked husband for child support money he started ranting and I never forgot these words he said. " nothing will change for you. You lose nothing. It's not like you had my affection". At first I was devastated. But now I realize he is 100% right. My life simply improved because now at least I am getting child support (when married I paid all kid expenses on a smaller salary) and him taking kids 4 days a month is more of a break then I ever had before. I am making new friends (something I neglected before) and doing more for me (getting hair done, make up focusing on things that make me feel good) I am also making important changes to my way of thinking and trying to instill new values to my children....

One day I will make housework a chore. But I don't know if I Wil ever be ready for that mountain

[JujuB]

Meant to say housework a goal...whish there was edit button

[Zues126]

I think most men and women are not prepared for the amount of work that is really required though.

Can I ask you a question J? To do it over, would you do anything differently? Or do you think you did the best you could and WAH is just unreasonable?

When I read your posts it seems like the latter. You talk about how WAH is wrong to not feel your love through your caretaking the children. And this isn't the first time you've referred to how much work taking care of the children is, usually in the context of implying that WAH needs to understand that he will have to take the back burner for a few years because the children are so demanding.

Taking care of the children is not taking care of him. And putting kids in front of your spouse leads to divorce which means your kids don't get to live with two loving parents.

At this point it may not seem to matter, maybe your children are getting a little older, maybe in future relationships child raising won't play a role. I just remember what 25years says: A WAS won't return to a M unless they think it can be better than the one they left. If you continue to think and talk as if WAH's needs are unreasonable I don't know how it's fair to expect him to return to a marriage in which his needs are not a priority.

As to the rest of your post, it's true that our lives improve in many ways after a D. I know that I am more stress free, more appreciative of what I have, happier than I was during my poor M, a better father, and I am confident I have a bright future. So when I compare it to a miserable marriage I am much happier. Still, there is no reason these positives couldn't have been attained in a better marriage, and the loss is permanent and horrifying. By all means continue to detach, GAL, and be positive about what you have. But I would encourage you to continue to stand for your M and to keep DBing, and I think that this topic is at the heart of what lay between you and WAH.

[Painter]

I agree with you, Zues - it's a 2-way street and both have to change. We can only change ourselves, and the DB-process is a wonderful tool for self-improvement.

If our spouses don't want to be a part of the change, we're happier alone and they risk losing us for good. I left today for what I think will be a happier life for me, but still made it clear to H that although he closed all other paths than this for now, I stand for the M and am in no hurry to D. I suspect, though, that OW is in the wings waiting.

At this point, I am mostly upset with H for not trying, for giving up, for turning to OW instead of focusing on improving the M.

It is very important to put the kids second to the R. They are needy, but it's healthy for them to see two parents who put each other first. A husband can take charge in that situation, by expressing a need for time alone with the W and take care of the practical details. He can arrange for family to take care of children for a night, or a weekend of pampering and rest for both. If the W is unwilling to let go, talk seriously - involve a MC. Don't just pull away and let resentment build.

This was not an issue in my M, but the resentment from unmet needs was. H was even jealous at how I treat the pets! I think we all have the responsibility to express our needs and create a situation where they can be met.