I just went back and started reading some old posts from Corri where she said the following....
Quote: Not letting someone off the hook means you do not allow someone else to make their problem yours. If you want her to do something for you, then it is up to you to communicate that expectation so that she can communicate back to you her thoughts and feelings. When you were sitting with her, all you had to say was, "I was hoping I had given you a really great reason to want to sit and cuddle with me, but I feel like something is wrong. Can you tell me about it?"
You are not 'letting her off the hook' by bringing the issue to light, not letting her avoid the discomfort, and clearing up an issue so that you do not personalize it. She should have said something to you, and her part in this was that she avoided clear communication with you because it could have turned uncomfortable for her.
I have just read this about 20 times.
I'm terrified to say "I really would like to ML to you tonight" because a couple weeks ago I tried to asked and she made ML a terrible experience where she simply tried to get me off with absolutely no "love" or reciprocal desire. She blew it off as "role play" of a sexually aggressive woman and I've tried to bring that night up again recently to get her to admit that she was just watching the clock and she responded "Do we really have to analyze everything so much".
I have to keep asking myself why I put myself through this when I could simply quit, go back to riding my mountain bike and working for 12 hours a day. This whole process is exposing all of individual and collective flaws. The more I work to fix things, the faster they are falling apart. It's like I "took the red pill" in the movie the Matrix (note: taking the red pill wakes you up to your true, horrific reality while the blue pill keeps you in a state of ignorant bliss). She is still living in the "blue pill" fantasy land where "if it looks good, it is good", hence her constant requests to "just put a smile on your face and be happy". It's getting very hard to be happy. I can't close this box. I've seen too much of the reality to ever go back. I made a joke earlier about denial. I need to rephrase it "SHE CHOOSES DENIAL". Seriously though, I'm going to feel like a total pushover if she ML with me tomorrow and I completely blow this off. My instinct would be to deny her advances but that would set us back months.
ONCE AGAIN, I REALLY NEED HELP WITH WHAT MY NEXT STEP SHOULD BE.
A. Ask her to make "couple time" for today/tonight B. Say nothing and wait to see if she initiates C. Express my disappointment about last night. D. Combination of a few of these E. Other
PLEASE HELP!!!!
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Dave, I will try to help. Since I am in the same boat as you (scarily, spookily, eerily the same), and I have not figured it out for myself, I'm likely to be of limited service, but I'll try.
I think your W is actually in denial about the problem. I don't think she's gotten real about it at all. I think if you could hear her thoughts, she'd be thinking that YOU are the one with the problem, and it's that you're over-sexed. She'd say you just need to calm down, jerk off and leave her alone. That's what I'm getting from the available evidence. I could be wrong.
If I'm right, then what you have to do is make her see what the problem is - force her to get real about it before it's too late. You might even have to lead her here and get her to read your posts and ours. I do think sometimes these women want to remain in denial, because they think it's easier that way. After all, WE're the ones who brought this problem to THEM. They want US to fix it.
AD, Your situation is much the same as mine regarding the W's denial. The state of denial can be so strong that even the threat of leaving for an OW is not enough to kick start a change process. W's attitude is that we are good friends, good parents and have an apparently happy home so what's the problem. She feels no need for romance, physical contact or even affirmation and can't see any reason why I should, in the same way as I see no point in going shopping without having a specific purchase in mind. It's a situation that can only change very slowly but sadly may take as much as 100 years to solve. What happens with me is that I get on a high of hope (this last month) which then starts to fade and my thoughts drift towards my OW whose birthday is approaching and in my mind's eye, all it would probably take is a birthday card to rekindle something. SD
SD - you really can't eat your cake and have it. If OW is truly on your mind, then it may be time to call it quits with W. It does no good to play "what if" games in your head, and if you WERE to take real action ref OW, then I think you're really admitting to yourself that the M is not working, and isn't likely to work. You can't "take a holiday" from the R without destroying it. The strengh and power of our position comes SOLELY from our committment that we will work on the R until we come to the realization that it is time to move on, and then move on we shall. Without that, we're in a weak position indeed. You really DON'T want to give W anything she can hold over your head - trust me on this one.
One thing I've been thinking is that W's attitude towards sex is one of the biggest barriers. This may be true of your W's as well as mine. She has all kinds of "rules" about what is "right" and "wrong" in regards to LM. Lots of hangups. With all of that, how much "fun" and "love" can be expressed that way, when you have to watch out you don't "cross a line" and actually enjoy something on the "forbidden" list. LM involves being open and vulnerable, and being able to totally trust the other person. I just wonder how much this kind of thing plays into the whole LD thing...
Any problems with the OW? Do you have kids at home yet? The reason I ask is that you can only put forth so much effort and time to "Cure" a ND woman. If you have genuinely done every last thing possible to "Cure" your wife, then maybe it is time to move on. Your wife sees things like my wifes sees them. They have very BIZARRE ideas for marriage. Who ever told these ladies that it is ok to not be sexual or to want intimacy. This is truly bizarre behavior, especially in a world where sex is everywhere.
"Denial" was the first thought in my mind this morning.
My wife's mom (MIL) exhibits avery self defeating behaviors which she is oblivious to. She just strolls around pretending everything is wonderful and uses an excessive amount of religion to support this. The last time she visited, she cornered me with the a completely panicky question "why won't (W) talk to me?...I feel like I'm walking on eggshells around her and that I can't do anything right". My W's attitude is that her mom will not listen nor will she ever change at her age. While I've agreed with that for a while, I told her that she really should come clean with her mom so that the issues are at least out on the table so that their relationship isn't completely screwed up. I will also say for the record, that in a minor spat recently, my W laid out some examples and her mom kept interrupting her as she did to avoid hearing it. Her mom has learned to selectively hear things and she also thinks that we can't see the "real" version of her behind the facade she puts up.
There are 2 points in this story....
1. My W desire to maintain "false harmony" 2. A genetic or learned disposition to no truthfully introspect. ie. she acts just like her mom pretending that everything is great.
I have never received much "real" criticism from my W and she has never touched anything bordering on a personality trait like "chattiness" for example. There is a possibility that I really drive her nuts with something or that she really isn't attracted to me but I detect it in her. For the example in my previous post about our LM session the other night where she tried to play if off as something else. It was so obvious to me what the reality was and her lie about it was so transparent. Yes, in that situation it was better to play along with it and not turn a LM (no matter how bad it was) into something to avoid in the future. BUT, this is just one example of a bigger problem. I truly feel that there is something deeper and she's not talking. Is it a problem with me? Is it something with her? In either case, she assumes that it can be ignored.
It's like she's terrified to tell me what the issue is. It's exactly the same thing she is doing with her mom. Now her mom is freaking out and so am I because we don't know where we truly stand with her. I can't imagine what it would be like to have a child give me mixed signals when I'm in my so called golden years.
The second big issue is that, like her mom, she seems very hesitant to examine her own faults. Maybe she's scared that she can't change them. Maybe she assumes that nobody can change and that's why it's better to gloss over everything.
Like I said last night, I'm just now discovering these things about her because I too was masterful at living in false-harmony and denial for the past 9 years. Unfortunately it took a dying parent to make me realize that I should get this relationship into shape or get out.
I've thought about the worst case scenario of really pushing her to get "real" with me.... me: "say it! say it! say it!...tell me what the issue is? get real!....get real!" her: "you actually drive me nuts, I'm completely disappointed in you and I really don't want to be married to you but I'm scared to leave because I don't have a degree or a job and I want our D to have a family"
As painful as it would be to hear this, I would love to hear it because it would no longer be boiling inside her. Unless she admitted a sexual orientation issue, we would have something to work with.
Once again. Is this a topic that can be communicated with her? Would my failure to bring this up be just as bad as her "false-harmony" behaviors? I could frame at as a problem we both have to make it look like I'm pointing a finger back at myself. Any suggestions on how/if I should try to address this?
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Quote: especially in a world where sex is everywhere.
And they'll say that is part of the problem. For one thing, since "sex is everywhere these days", they'll say that's the reason we think about it all the time - it's always "in our face" (we WISH!). Plus, they'll say that the constant bombardment is a turn-off for them, because they're constantly reminded of their "inadequacies".
I'm thinking of starting a thread called "Crap 101", discussing the myths and nonsense that abound about this topic. Might be high time.
The thing about intimacy in marriage, is... that is what gives marriage its meaning! The whole point of marriage is to have a R that is DIFFERENT and UNIQUE from any other R you will have. What else is there to give it uniqueness than sex and intimacy? That is the ONE THING (theoretically) that you have with W (or H) that you do not share with ANYONE else. ALL other things are more common to any other R, even casual ones. PLUS, we often treat (and get treated by) our casual and business acquaintances MUCH better than by our spouses, who feel they should be able to "let their hair down" at home, and not be "on". WTF??????
Quote: Once again. Is this a topic that can be communicated with her? Would my failure to bring this up be just as bad as her "false-harmony" behaviors?
I think you have to. And, yes.
Quote: Any suggestions on how/if I should try to address this?
Not yet, but hang in there, don't do anything yet, and let's try to figure it out...
Wow. Just got on this morning and there was a ton of messages in this thread. AD, why not do all the arranging for a babysitter? I've done this before. True, our dinners out often leave much to be desired, but then, so do dinners at home...at least I don't have to cook it and clean up afterwards. Just a thought.
I think you need to calm down, be patient and loving and confident. I know it's not your nature, but you seem almost explosive in your mood changes. Take a deep breath, dude.
And Superdave, leave this OW issue alone. Nothing but trouble there. It will cause pain to your W, to the OW and to you. Everything I've read about this OW tells me she's trouble. Even if you ended up with her permanently (not likely), you'd just be ending up with a whole new set of problems. Don't send her a card. Don't even think about her.
At least you guys have ML in the last 6 months. Sheesh.
Tim & CeMar, Contact with my OW is of course just a fantasy because she got tired of me and called me DitheringDave instead of SuperDave at the end because I would not leave home for her. However the memory of an HD woman growling like a female tiger in your ear is a difficult one to let go of. SD
