Letting go, finally

[JGuy]

Yes, I'm just not with you on the whole - maturely exploring a friendship with OW (to whom you are attracted.) I think it's best to realise you are waaay to vulnerable to carry that one off and limit new friendships to guys - not attractive gals.

Thinking more about it last night, I am starting to agree with you and the others regarding this advice. In an ideal world such a thing may be possible, and I may or may not indeed be capable of it, but even if I am, there is still a question of whether or not the OW is capable of it.

I have another female friend who I have been very close to emotionally for the last 4 years... I have not mentioned her before because it was never an issue. We ski together, we hang out once every week or two, we share all our relationship struggles with each other, and that friendship has been awesome and there has never been any romantic attraction to each other. There have been moments where like any woman I admire her beauty at times, but we have never had any problem keeping things platonic. This makes me wonder if I can do the same with the OW with whom I have recently had this spiritual connection, but I have to admit it's more risky because of just how intense that attraction felt at that one point a couple weeks ago.

It's sad that it has to be this way, but for now I'm feeling like you folks are probably right and it would best to play it safe and keep some distance from the OW.

[Thornton]

I suspect, this is exactly how things developed for your W with her OM.

[JGuy]

Yes, there is an immature part of me that wants to indulge in the fantasy that this OW is my long lost soulmate.

Do you see the similarity to a wayward spouse?

Absolutely! I don't think that this part is any different from the situation my W was in at the onset of her affairs. In a way, I feel grateful for the opportunity to be put in similar circumstances, and to be given the chance to handle it with maturity. I have always said to my W that there's nothing wrong with feeling an attraction to an OP, it is all about how you handle it. I want to handle this well, with integrity, consistent with my values, so as to be a living example of what I need my partner to do return. So far, that has meant being 100% transparent with my W about the OW, my feelings, and everything that happens. It has meant being brutally honest with myself and acting consistently with what I know to be right.

I thought that building a platonic friendship with the OW would be possible up until she revealed her attraction to me three days ago. When that came out, I realized that indeed I am in the danger zone. I wish it didn't have to be so, but the right thing to do now is to distance myself from the OW. You folks are right.

The OW is a rebound. It is not fair to either of you to try and have this friendship while you are married. If this is a woman who would make friendships with a M man......and that's okay with you, then put it to a test. Ask her to wait. Ask her for no more contact as long as you are M, that you need to do what is right and that if you get divorced, then you will contact her to see if she is still interested. If she really wants to "respect" your W or your M, she will graciously step away. If she is the lady you think, or hope, she is.....and if she has true feelings for you, she will wait.

The OW and I already had a discussion in which we mutually agreed that it may be a good idea to stop. It wasn't conclusive though. At this point, I think I'll just stop contacting the OW. I will be certain to see her around, and if she contacts me or the opportunity somehow arises, I would like to say something along the lines of what you suggest, Sandi.

[Flight]

"We ski together, we hang out once every week or two, we share all our relationship struggles with each other"

This is an emotional affair, especially sharing your relationship troubles with each other.

[JGuy]

I find it hard to post to you knowing that you seem to look for offence where there really isn't any If you read Sottos post to you , she states how's it her humble opinion because when you r not agreed with or validated it seems to take it as an attack on you and we have to stress that it's not

I am concerned about this dynamic, Rd. I am open to learning from these challenges in communication with you and seeing how it reflects some things about myself that need healing. I wouldn't say that I take offense, but I am definitely triggered when my experience of you is that I feel the opposite of validation. It pokes at one of my open wounds. I appreciate your efforts to be more sensitive, so thank you. I'm willing to try and own my part in this, as hard as that might be. I believe that while there may be lots of misinterpretations going on, your advice also contains some nuggets of truth which are helpful. Here's an example of one that was helpful:

Your friendship with OW is born from a place where your emotionally unstable due to your Ws affairs You flip from wanting M to not wanting M and I completely understand but you have never given yourself a chance to relax back.

I totally agree about the need to give myself a chance to relax back. I have been getting the sense that I need that and hearing you say it makes me more certain that this is indeed the path I must follow. Only once I can heal my wounds, build a new sense of self worth, etc will I be a better man when it comes to relationships. I have started down this path but it feels like I have a long ways to go. Regardless of whether or not I save my M, this path of personal growth needs to be my priority.

Your interactions with IC and the Shaman were at completel odds with each other yet when I pointed this out you ignored it because it didn't suit you or you didn't agree but I was going on your info so I can't see how you wouldn't agree

What are you referring to here, Rd? The advice I got from two different ICs and the shamanic healer were very aligned. They all say that I need to value myself more and not give so much of myself away so easily in relationships. At one point you seemed to suggest that their advice contradicted the fact that I am not very good at empathy, which I have been recognizing on my own. I don't see this as a contradiction, though. I think both are true and part of the same root issue. I need to become more in touch with my heart so that I can validate emotions better in general. That applies both to validating myself and others. This is super hard for Enneagram type 5's like myself, who are notoriously cerebral and easily overwhelmed by the irrational nature of emotions. Does this address what you were getting at? If not, perhaps you can elaborate on what you're trying to point out here.

I thought your admission recently that once you started to GAL and care less about the outcome of the M and more about you , as advised from day one on your thread ,was very mature and showed that you were maybe seening that some advice on here that you argued with at the start , you could now see was some what right.

I understood that advice from the beginning. I wasn't arguing with the fact that GALing would be good for me, I was arguing with the fact that it would be good to try and force it when I just wasn't there yet. I was still in shock in the beginning and in retrospect, I think I just had to come through that stage naturally before I started feeling the impulse to GAL. I wouldn't still be here if I didn't feel I was getting some value from the advice, but things aren't so black-and-white. I have to sift through the advice to figure out what is right for me and when is the right time for me to apply it. That doesn't mean I'm rejecting the advice.

[JGuy]

My pointing out your repetitive use of the word integrity came across ( to me ) as someone trying to convince themselves more than anyone else If you feel you acted with integrity then that's what matters. I wouldn't agree and feel that while your in this sitch , integrity would be working on yourself while standing for your M and not getting into an other R that may hamper this I truly don't feel that you not letting the R with OW progress romantically is acting with integrity but to me it's just acting normally and maybe that's where we differ

If you read through your posts from day 1 there is lot of grand statements regarding yourself and while I don't think this is completely wrong it does make me feel your lacking in some self worth ( as am I re insecurities in Rs ) and this I feel makes you look for validation where others might not need it

Yes. I fully recognize that my need for external validation is a sign that there's a part of me that still needs to grow up. I very much do need to convince myself that I'm capable of living by integrity, thinking for myself, and learning from my own mistakes. I realized some things last week about what triggers me and I have come to think that this need for validation is very healthy and necessary. I'll tell you why I think so.

It's pretty normal for kids to need external validation, right? They rely on encouragement and validation from their parents to feel confident and good about themselves and keep going when they get feedback that they are doing the right thing. One success at a time, they build confidence and self esteem, and they learn that making mistakes is a necessary and perfectly good part of this process. My father was a narcissistic perfectionist who didn't validate me in the ways that I needed and so part of me is still back there, struggling to find a sense of self worth, struggling to believe that I am capable of having integrity and doing the right thing. It is not my fault that I'm dealing with that, but here I am. More than anything right now I need gentle encouragement, help to strengthen the good, mature parts of me. I need the parenting I never got, to believe that I am good and capable of integrity and that it's OK to make mistakes, etc.

I think what happens here is that I get triggered big time when you or someone tells me that I'm doing things wrong, that I'm lost, that I'm incapable of seeing myself clearly, not listening to advice, etc. because it undermines the already weak self confidence that I am trying to build, as a platform I can stand on to feel capable of working on myself and making good decisions. You seem to think that I am stubbornly holding onto some unhealthy pride and ego that needs to be kicked down, so you are taking a tough approach with me. Your intentions may be good, but I suspect that you may misunderstand what's going on inside of me. When I get kicked down and feel incapable, I get depressed, unmotivated, just like I did with my father's approach. This sets me back and kills my motivation. I recognize that isn't helping me and that first and foremost, I need build a strong platform of feeling capable that I can stand on. That is why I am pushing back against your style of giving advice, Rd. There are many other folks here with whom I am not triggered in this way. I don't mean this to sound like I'm blaming you and that it's you who has to change. I'm in no position to judge whether it's right or wrong to have the communication style that you do. I am just hoping to clarify why it affects me the way it does.

The irony is that by standing up for myself and explaining this to you folks right now, I am being the protective parent to myself that I always needed. It is hard because I feel like I have to do it totally alone and nobody may understand. I may be judged and many people reading my posts may think that I'm way off base. Of course, I wish that people would understand this about me and validate that I'm on the right track here, but it seems like some things I'm just destined to have to struggle through alone.

Of course, I will always make mistakes, and it makes sense that I need to develop a sense of self worth that isn't dependent on never making mistakes. The "I told you so but you didn't listen" comments that I sometimes get here also trigger me because it sends the message that I am not capable of thinking for myself and I shouldn't trust myself to experiment on my own because I will inevitably make mistakes, which are bad and something to be ashamed of. Just like with my father, my reaction is to either fight back or withdraw and go it alone, denying my own need for external validation.

I want to eventually get to the point where I don't need external validation but it means healing all of this somehow. As unpleasant as it is, I thank you Rd for triggering me so that I can see these issues for what they are and try to work through them. I may not change overnight but I hope these explanations may help you make more sense of why I react to you the way I do.

[job]

JGuy,

Please start a new thread.

[JGuy]

"We ski together, we hang out once every week or two, we share all our relationship struggles with each other"

This is an emotional affair, especially sharing your relationship troubles with each other.

Interesting. I would have thought that to be considered an EA, it requires some kind of romantic attraction to be there. There is no attraction between me and this friend. She happens to be female, but I have never felt any attraction to her, and I don't think I ever would because she is not my type. When talking about our relationship challenges, we value each other's perspective and we use it to learn about ourselves.

BTW, Originally I was never the kind of person who talked with any friends much at all about my relationship with my W. If I had a problem with my W, I would talk to my W about it. Only after I found out about my W's affairs did I suddenly have a very strong need for emotional support outside of the M. That's when I started talking to lots of my close friends and family about what was going on. This friend was one of those people.

Should I really be worried that this may be a threat to my M? It seems really unnecessary to lose this source of support based on a black-or-white definition of all females being off limits when it comes to sharing my story and seeking support.

[rd500]

Hi Jguy , I've read your responses and I feel it's time for me to remove myself from your thread. I wish you all the best and hope things work out for you and more importantly for your son. If I may just say a few things

I would ask you to read the story of Budda teaching a student of how to find " the answer " to life , The student searched all over and tried so hard to understand but he couldn't or wouldn't see what was in front of him

I've followed your thread from the start , you have blamed your birth, your dad , your W , me , other posters , etc because we did not treat you the way you wanted or advise you the way you wanted. PLEASE PLEASE , actually be the independent thinker you claim to be and THINK what's the common denominator here I'm not saying it's all your fault , far from it , your W has acted with very low moral fibre but you are not doing yourse
Anyway. Had a good night, talked to S3 and he is happy. s1 has an eye infection apparently so that's no good.
W started telling me about car again, not for advice just letting me know what's going on with it. The boys started being a handful so I said sounds like the boys need you I'll let you go. Have a good night. She didn't sound happy I was ending the convo.

Pretty sore after volleyball last night. It was good. I got a good sweat on and had a lot of fun. Thought of W once and only because a wedding song came on. Well back to work. Thanks everyone for the support you really helped me through a low time the last few dayslf any favours with the ego you are carrying around. Sometimes we are wrong and it's hard to accept that maturely and I speak from experience, instead of using words like integrity to describe your self why not try the word humble or thoughtful There is an old joke about a guy asked to describe his worse fault and the guy thinks long and hard and answers that he is too generous !!!

Eckhart toole describes ego very well

On the IC vs Shaman debate , my point was IC said you had no empathy for others and Shaman said you gave to much of yourself to others You agreed that both were right

These are my thoughts and if they offend then that was not the intention.

Take care. Rd

[JGuy]

New thread: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2661824&#Post2661824