How to invalidate your other half and destroy any chance of an R in one post.
The antithesis of Wonka's validation cheat sheet Originally posted by V in September 2015.
“When we invalidate people or deny their perceptions and personal experiences, we make mental invalids of them. When one’s feelings are denied a person can be made to feel crazy even when they are perfectly mentally healthy.” RD Laing
What is invalidation?
Invalidation is so insidious that we may not even know it’s happening. We know that something doesn’t feel right, but we can’t put our finger on it and it destroys connection.
People invalidate others for a variety of reasons, sometimes purposefully and sometimes not. An abuser will use invalidation as a tool of manipulation and a weapon. Others may be short on empathy. Some may feel uncomfortable with your pain, or feel powerless to do anything to help you.
The bottom line is this: When you’re invalidated, you are not having your emotional needs met.
Non-verbal invalidation includes things like leaving the room, giving the silent treatment, and rolling the eyes (this indicates contempt, and it’s actually predictive of a bad outcome in any relationship). ---------------------------------------------------
Setting the scene by validating first to create connection Our feelings help us identify our unmet emotional needs. If you don’t feel understood, it means you have an unmet need to feel understood. If you feel neglected or ignored, it means you don’t feel you’re getting enough attention. If you feel taken for granted, it means you aren’t feeling appreciated.
These are some of our fundamental emotional needs:
To be acknowledged. To be accepted. To be listened to. To be understood. To be loved. To be appreciated. To be respected. To be safe. To be valued. To be worthy. To be trusted. To feel capable and competent. To feel clear (instead of confused). To be supported.
At first abusers validate us, they demonstrated that they cared and that our feelings mattered to them. It seemed to show that we mattered to them. By “mirroring” our feelings, they showed us they were in tune with us. That made us feel connected to them. That’s how they got us to bond with them.
------------------------------------------- Next invalidate When we experience invalidation, we defend ourselves either through withdrawal or counter-attack.
“Repeated withdrawal, though, tends to decrease our self-confidence and lead to a sense of powerlessness and depression. On the other hand, going on the offensive often escalates the conflict. A healthier response, one which is both informative and assertive, without being aggressive, is to simply express your feelings clearly and concisely. For example, you might respond, “I feel invalidated,” “I feel mocked,” or “I feel judged.” ~ Steve Hein, MSW: Invalidation ----------------------------------
Say this to destroy your R
Really want to destroy your R? Try these phrases.............
The following are all invalidating statements that either minimise feelings, deny perceptions, order others to feel differently, tell you how to feel, or lay a guilt trip for thinking or feeling anything:
I thought we already talked about that. I can’t believe you’re going to bring that up again. I refuse to have this discussion. You should be ashamed of yourself for feeling that way. You need to realize how lucky you are. It could be worse. You shouldn’t feel that way. Think about those who have it worse. Just don’t worry about it. Get over it. Stop taking everything so personally. Get a life. (thanks I will) Lighten up.Cheer up. It was only a joke Don’t look so serious. You’ve got it all wrong. Of course I respect you. But I do listen to you. That is ridiculous. This is nonsense. That’s not the way things are. That’s not how things are. I honestly don’t judge you as much as you think. You are the only one who feels that way. Everyone agrees with me It doesn’t bother anyone else, why should it bother you? You must be kidding. It can’t be that bad. Your life can’t be that bad. You’re just tired or unwell It’s nothing to get upset over. It’s not worth getting that upset over. You should feel thankful that ________. You should be glad that ________. Just drop it. Suck it up You should just forget about it. I’m sure she didn’t mean that. Maybe he was just having a bad day. You shouldn’t let it bother you. I’m sure she means well. Don’t make that face! You don’t really mean that. Do you think the world was created to serve you? Don’t you ever think of anyone but yourself? You are......selfish/mean/the most xxxx in the world What about my feelings? Have you ever stopped to consider my feelings for even a moment? Time heals all wounds. Every cloud has a silver lining. Life is full of pain and pleasure. In time you will understand this. You can choose to be happy. You are just going through a phase. Everything has its reasons. Everything is just the way it is supposed to be. This is really getting old. This is getting to be pathetic. I am sick and tired of hearing it. You should be over that by now. It’s not such a big deal. That’s what you’re so excited about? Is that all? You think too much. Don’t let it get to you. That’s nothing to be afraid of. Stop feeling so sorry for yourself. You’ve been upset about this for too long; it’s time to move on. Just don’t think about it. You need to get past that. You need to get on with your life. You’re _______ (jealous, insecure, crazy, unstable, a worry wart, overly dramatic, a complainer, or too sensitive) You’re making a big deal out of nothing. You’re imagining things, it's in your head
I am sure there are plenty more
This post my abuse diary. For the way to build your R see Wonkas Validation cheat sheet.
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I also think a main point of my original post has been missed.
Stating your feelings isn't condescending of you.
I feel like your mother is a statement of her feelings and she is entitled to them. Validate them.
On the contrary telling her she is condescending is invalidating.
So if she says to you- You are a baby etc, that is condescending. And labelling.... of you.
If you say I feel condescended to when you say that thats different to you are condescending.
Both of you are entitled to your feelings stating them is not condescending.
Can you not hear this as destructive:
She would get a lot more understanding and validation from me if she would just drop the patronizing attitude.
Can you not see this is condescending, labelling and blaming?
It is invalidating your W's feelings!
To me when you point a finger four point back.
In my book you are not being patronised when someone is honestly trying to tell you their feelings.
I mean, should I really just allow her to speak to me this way all of the time? I don't think that's healthy either.
I completely disagree, get Validating and accepting her feelings.
I am glad you are using the resources, That is amazing.
A better understanding of validating and good boundary enforcement is vital.
Please cease invalidating other peoples feelings or your own.
If you say V I feel condescended to then I would say to you 'please tell me what W does that triggers that in you'.
And then you say'she says she feels like my mother'
And I then say 'I can see that you feel condescended to, have you considered that W is entitled to her feelings and that they are valid to her? Can you see it is a wonderful trusting thing that she is trusting you to hold her feelings? That to do so is a gift? Can you see that is the opposite of condescending and is in fact a tremendous symbol of trust?'
If I say it like that will that make a difference to you?
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Hi Vanilla and thanks for your feedback and validation explanations. To be honest, I didn't know what to say when my W told me she wasn't attracted to me anymore. I think I simply said that it hurts to hear her say that. I know I didn't validate her statement but I was feeling pretty emotional when she said that to me so it was the best I could do at the time.
We had a little tiff yesterday over some banking and bills. She gets frustrated that I'm not up to speed with our accounts - she manages the bills day to day. It's something I'm going to take over (and she wants me to) but I just don't have any time to do it right now between full time work, two kids in competitive hockey (I coach one of the teams), trying to study for this exam (which has not been going well with all of this stress going on - I'm not sleeping) and other obligations. We pretty much avoided each other yesterday but we are talking today - which I initiated. I should probably just tell her I understand her frustration around the bills. It's just hard right now, she has way more free time than I do. She slept in again this morning and has now gone out to a yoga class. I'm getting the kids up, dressed, fed and dropped to school to come back home and dial into work. To be honest though, I think the bills are one big pain point for my W and something I just need to take over asap - whether I have time to do it or not. I do all of the tax prep these days for our accountants but the week to week bills stresses her out.
Our next joint MC session isn't until the end of next week so feels like it's dragging on (hard to get an appointment with this counselor). I'm having a hard time staying positive. My W seems to sleep fine - it's as if she isn't worried about our relationship where I'm slowly turning into a wreck. And I get worse when I don't get sleep which is happening more and more. What should I be doing with my W between now and our next MC session? I'm still not pursuing and as much as I feel like putting my arm around her and kissing her I feel pretty sure I'd either be pushed away or if not she would just allow me to kiss her with her wall still up and the possibility of that rejection scares me. I'm just not sure what to do and how to behave right now. This sleep deprivation is not helping.
W and I talked a little this afternoon as I am preparing our tax stuff and I could see my W is stressed about it. Told her I'll deal with it all. We had also talked about the MC and that after three sessions she still hasn't said anything to help bring us back together. it's true, we are both surprised the MC hasn't offered any tools or advice yet to help us begin to start bringing us closer again. We are considering moving to another counselor. After that, my W and I ended up hugging for a minute (I did initiate that but I think we both needed it at that moment). Hope I didn't do something to set back my wife's hopeful re-attraction for me - I realize I have to make her think I'm moving on (detaching) but at the same time we are trying to repair our marriage and sometimes we need to support each other. It's our sons birthday today as well and I would like us to be in better frame of mind (working together rather than apart if that makes any sense).
If I am truly detached I should not care what she says and just let it roll of my shoulders - no response required right? Or am I still not getting it. Think I need those examples. lol
I wouldn't say you should be so detached that you don't care what she says or does to you directly. You have children to consider, and how that affects them growing into healthy adults and their relationships in the future.
It is how you respond to her. Standing up to her does mean you tear into her, ready to fight. It means not allowing her to disrespect you. B/c when she disrespects you, everything else just about flies out of the window, relationship wise. Looking her eyeball to eyeball and calmly telling her that you will not tolerate disrespect in your home. If she can't show respect, she needs to leave.
I have seen cases where the woman had bullied the man so badly, that she would tell him that she had no intentions of showing him respect. If that is the case, then they need to separate. He has lost all intended battles for his respect in that household. If a man has no respect in his own home, what does he have? Not very much!!
We had a LBH by the name of Joe, who had a WW. He had gotten down on his luck by losing a job, I think. Anyway, she became one of these people who talked on adult phone numbers. I referred to her as a verbal prostitute. I can't remember is if he had anything else added to his name (been through too many threads over nine years to remember the names), but he was pretty beaten down when he came here. He thought detaching was tuning out everything his W was doing over the phone every night (and she was doing it from their home where the children were). He was scared and wanted to keep his family together for the "sake of the kids". She was a bully. They had separate rooms and she had stopped taking care of the kids, and basically made the adult chatting her life. When he tried to reason with her, it did no good. If he tried to tell her how disrespected he felt, she did not care. She did not care that they had to keep it a secret from their grown kids, and the little ones had no idea what mommy was doing up in the other room every night. He tried to encourage her to get a respectable job, and she told him she enjoyed doing what she was doing! It took him some time before his courage built up enough to tell her she was not going to have sex talk with these men from his house. By then, she was so addicted to it that she was contacting men who didn't pay for it. It was pretty disgusting. Their M ended, but the last several updates we heard from Joe was him saying he was the happiest he had ever been, and he couldn't believe how he allowed himself to be put in that position of disrespect.
Oh, and his WW? She moved across the country several states away from him, and was really struggling...b/c guess what? He had full custody of the kids! Can you just imagine what may have happened if he had never stood against her disrespect for him, the M and their home/family? Maybe you think your situation is not that bad. Joe really didn't at first, I don't think. Either that or he was just making excuses for it. However, one thing leads to another. It is like a snowball rolling in the snow. It gets bigger and bigger.
Stay balanced in your perceptions about detaching and standing up against a show of disrespect.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I think the most important thing for you is to set boundaries for the behaviours which are acceptable to you.
Your boundaries, if you don't know what these are then you can't enforce them.
I like Al Turtle and his explanation on boundaries, it is written for teenagers and it makes sense to me.
Knowing what is important to you in terms of values. It isn't about control of another it is centered on you and your values and beliefs.
Resolving what is important to you.
Detaching isn't moving on, it is letting go of the outcome, so that when you reinforce your boundaries you do so irrespective of the effect on your W. You do so because its correct.
It seems to me that you are doing the majority of care for yourself and your children whilst W is starting to become rather erratic.
It might be time to look at this again, it could be that you agree to do the weekly accounts and in return W agrees to undertake a different task.
This is a family and W could be doing her share of the chores.
I think its time to be strong, validating and to set and enforce your boundaries.
So in that vein, what are your boundaries?
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
I have to work on my responses. I just don't know how to respond sometimes. She often rakes me over the coals over something small where a simple mention of it would have sufficed and made her point. Instead, the point gets completely missed and I usually get defensive. I have to learn to keep it simple and take some pages from the validation cheat sheets. I think my problem is while I'm fine use validation I'm also trying to address the way she speaks to me in the same sentence and maybe that just doesn't work. Eg. "I understand you are frustrated but you don't need to speak to me that way". Suggestions?
W has been looking for more work outside the house and has now taken one 5 hour day a week at a part-time job in her field while still working out of the house. She started looking for work when we started having problems recently and I assume she was more preparing for if we did split up as I bring in 95% of the household income. Either way, she needs to get out there and work more but I haven't asked this of her as I did not want the resentment from her - she needed to do this on her own and she has so I'm thankful for that. She is looking into other jobs as well - if she could fill even 3 days a week it would make a huge impact in our financial challenges and I think she's finally realized it.
Still struggling to maintain some distance but have not tripped up other than the hug yesterday. I wonder if she'll ever feel close to me again in such a way that she would want to hug or kiss me. I want her heart back and the rest will fall into place. Hopefully with everyone's feedback and guidance in this forum I'll stay on track. It really helps just to get your feelings out here.
Short-term goals are to continue my studies but I'm going to start going to the local library when I can to get out of the house. Too distracting with my wife and the kids for that matter. My workout routine turns me from mush to a man again everyday. It just makes me feel so much better afterwards - I highly recommend sweating it out to anyone on this forum. It releases a lot of stress and leaves you with a much more confident and relaxed sense of self post workout. And, stay busy with my boys and their hockey - which is what I love to do anyway.
W and I have been casually talking about this and that (not about the marriage or issue - just kids and news events, light conversation etc) and we're still sleeping in the same bed.
I have to work on my responses. I just don't know how to respond sometimes. She often rakes me over the coals over something small where a simple mention of it would have sufficed and made her point. Instead, the point gets completely missed and I usually get defensive. I have to learn to keep it simple and take some pages from the validation cheat sheets. I think my problem is while I'm fine use validation I'm also trying to address the way she speaks to me in the same sentence and maybe that just doesn't work. Eg. "I understand you are frustrated but you don't need to speak to me that way". Suggestions?
Validation 101 using but turns a validation into an invalidation and becomes neither a boundary nor a validation. Very weak.
I think you need much stronger boundary statements:
I understand your frustration and when you speak to me with X attitude then I am unlikely to want to cooperate with you. If this continues then I will walk away. Second time
W I advised you that when you speak to me without courtesy I will walk away so I am leaving the room now.
W has been looking for more work outside the house and has now taken one 5 hour day a week at a part-time job in her field while still working out of the house. She started looking for work when we started having problems recently and I assume she was more preparing for if we did split up as I bring in 95% of the household income. Either way, she needs to get out there and work more but I haven't asked this of her as I did not want the resentment from her - she needed to do this on her own and she has so I'm thankful for that. She is looking into other jobs as well - if she could fill even 3 days a week it would make a huge impact in our financial challenges and I think she's finally realized it.
Good
Still struggling to maintain some distance but have not tripped up other than the hug yesterday. I wonder if she'll ever feel close to me again in such a way that she would want to hug or kiss me. I want her heart back and the rest will fall into place.
Remember it's your actions that you are responsible for. W is responsible for hers. You have no control
Regards
V
Last edited by Cadet; 03/03/1606:29 AM. Reason: fix quote
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
W: I am not attracted to you any more You: I hear you say that you are not attracted to me at the moment, and well my mirror and I just think I am attractive and cute so we will have to agree to disagree on that one.
Then walk away.
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In other words just because W isn't attracted to you then that doesn't mean you aren't attractive. Her loss. Her choice. You are ok whatever she thinks of you because you have high self worth. Detached. Your view matters most.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
