New night(s)

[25yearsmlc]

Good luck with the coach, Kyrie.

I found mine so very helpful. But your post makes me sad.
I don't throw out the terms "manipulation" or "abuse" carelessly. Yet your h's behavior sure smacks of both.

And some serious hypocrisy. Since I know you cannot change him, I'm at a loss as to how to advise.

I've come to realize that having a flaw in a spouse is normal, even a fairly significant one. But no, it does NOT mean you must divorce them.

I recall when a brother announced to me my h was "being selfish", as if it was a guilty verdict my brother had deliberated on for days.

I conceded the point and said "yes that's true. And I can be self righteous/sarcastic" and whatever other flaws I could think of at the time. I mean, yeah, join the human club.

Kyrie, YOU already know some behaviors are so over the line, that things would have to end. If he hit you in the face, or hurt the kids or drove drunk with kids in the car, etc....I believe you'd leave, regardless of what others thought or said.

Ah, but it's the gray areas that trouble us most, I suspect. The flaws in them, in which we believe WE play a role, (or we become convinced THEIR flaw is at least partly OUR responsibility)

I pondered this^^^ a lot. Where did I end, and h begin? Where was the outer boundary of MY mistakes and where did my h's start?

What did I have to "own", and what did I have to accept AND perhaps hardest of all, what could I NOT live with ---(& therefore have to confront??)

For me, the following criteria helped me get some clarity.

I offer it to you, just in case....

AGAIN I remind you, operate under the assumption your h will NOT change

I would ask myself whether the flaw or behavior in h was something that would block or substantially hinder MY own contentment,

and or

MY ability to create joy in my life, and or to feel security, and meaning,

would he try to stand in my way to living a life of loving purpose and at least some self actualization, etc....

Maybe you can ask yourself these questions if they feel authentic for you. Whatever you do, keep facing things with the courage you've shown here.

((( )))

[25yearsmlc]

Here are things wives listed as their top 2 needs in a marriage in a survey. (See if it feels applicable).

Wives report the 2 priorities for them in a h are fidelity (self explanatory I think) and security. What does "Security" mean, for you?

For ME, security is both financial and physical.

Having a roof over my head and food on the table is a basic need and at least when I was pregnant and or when I gave birth, it FELT as if it was mostly h's job to provide this financial security, and it meant eventually, knowing we were saving at least something for the future.

Didn't have to be a lot, and it didn't have to be a mansion or lobster on the table of course. (***To be clear, we lived below the poverty level the first SEVEN years of our marriage, both in college, then I had law school and his medical school overlapped, etc.) Deferring gratification was fine...as long as there was a light at the end of the tunnel -

but I know that I can't live as a lifestyle, paycheck to paycheck AND feel "financial Security".

Physical security is partly related to financial security -- b/c I think living in a bad area would feel scary AND Not secure...

the other obvious physical security requirements would be that my h protect me and our kids, investigate the "weird noises downtairs" at 3 am, etc.

I can honestly say that I've always known my h would kill or die for me or the kids--and he's always been in strong physical shape, which I very much appreciate)

"Security" also means our h's not hurt me physically or threaten me or the kids (can't drive unsafely (physical security meaning, a roof over my head). Security also means generally, FEELING SAFE, EMOTIONALLY -

So -- if he belittled me, particularly n front of our children, or prevented me from feeling at peace, or if he'd been "gaslighting" me, I would not be secure or safe in my marriage.

In those cases, I'd have left for good, b/c we are allowed to, (indeed entitled to,) feel safe and sane in our marriages.

Good grief, if our protectors are our biggest detractors and fiercest critics, it's bad news my friend.

I mean, the term "gaslight" comes to mind when I consider your h's behaviors. (google the term, based on the film, if it's unfamiliar to you).

Seems like HE crosses a line and HE goes to nudie bars and HE sees a L, but the mere fact that you seek self improvement is an indictment of YOUR moral failings?

When you GAL even a little, he accuses you of yet another character failing - b/c you are "acting as if nothing is wrong" b/c you are forcing yourself (it's called cognitive behavior therapy, or counting your blessings, etc) into a decent mood.

He seems to want to fight and if you refuse, he's furious, and blames you. But if you engage, he's vindicated, and holds your every flaw over your head like the Sword of Damacles.

Oh Kyrie, I am afraid for you. I am afraid you will never be allowed to enjoy life.

You know I don't mean that in a selfish indulgent way.

Just basic healthy living well, feeling at peace within, and passing on coping skills and joi de vivre to your children...(think of what they'll learn if this keeps on, and how it might push them away from religion)...

I am afraid you are afraid to confront the possibility that he's literally not good enough for you.

Having "another marriage end", does not mandate that you're a bad person.
I have an older sister who is literally the kindest person I know. She's also attractive and funny, she's a nurse and she works hard, etc.

Our dad once referred to her as "the embodiment of good", (which my siblings and I continue to tease her about..."OMG dad, come on!")

Anyhow, Kyrie, she's on her 3rd marriage...why? B/c she's bad? b/c she doesn't deserve to be happy?

B/c the first marriage was a short one, & started at age 18. They were both very young, they made mistakes and perhaps they were not well suited. (Nice guy, though).

The 2nd marriage was 22 years long, with 3 kids and she worked full time and put him thru law school and then.....he left her. He broke her heart...(selfish depressive funny, smart, fool...ex bil)


She's now married again, and although this guy doesn't earn much and isn't perfect - she sure is his priority. I can honestly say she would NOT go back to the one who broke her heart.

She is now, well loved. I tell you this b/c it's not always a moral failing on our part, that ends marriage.

YES It takes two to make a marriage work well, that's true.

But sometimes it only takes one person to end a marriage.

I've got no special hotline to God, but I do know 2 things:

1) your h isn't treating you right.

And 2) we teach our children a lot more about life and marriage by what we endure, what we create, what we make happen than by what we say...

Be at peace, be happy, keep on keeping on. Have courage & strength.

((( )))

[kyrie]

Gotta love mind reading expectations. But, baby steps. I'm wondering if I should change back my Facebook status to show married - I'm not trying to play games. And yeah, it looks that way. Still, it made him curious/nervous. But that's maybe not a good thing.

Good point about the equivalence to falling off the horse. Wonder how she thinks of you trying to help her. It's probably still a bit tricky in her mind there - I wouldn't put it that way to her much (IMHO). She does need you, very much, but I'm not sure how much she gets that or (like a teenager), *wants* that, but she needs you.

[kyrie]

Good luck with the coach, Kyrie.

I found mine so very helpful. But your post makes me sad.
I don't throw out the terms "manipulation" or "abuse" carelessly. Yet your h's behavior sure smacks of both.

And some serious hypocrisy. Since I know you cannot change him, I'm at a loss as to how to advise.

Kyrie, YOU already know some behaviors are so over the line, that things would have to end. If he hit you in the face, or hurt the kids or drove drunk with kids in the car, etc....I believe you'd leave, regardless of what others thought or said.

Ah, but it's the gray areas that trouble us most, I suspect. The flaws in them, in which we believe WE play a role, (or we become convinced THEIR flaw is at least partly OUR responsibility)


What did I have to "own", and what did I have to accept AND perhaps hardest of all, what could I NOT live with ---(& therefore have to confront??)

For me, the following criteria helped me get some clarity.

I offer it to you, just in case....

AGAIN I remind you, operate under the assumption your h will NOT change

I would ask myself whether the flaw or behavior in h was something that would block or substantially hinder MY own contentment,

and or

MY ability to create joy in my life, and or to feel security, and meaning,

would he try to stand in my way to living a life of loving purpose and at least some self actualization, etc....

Maybe you can ask yourself these questions if they feel authentic for you. Whatever you do, keep facing things with the courage you've shown here.

((( )))

Thanks 25years. Yeah, it's all so confusing. He would stand in the way of anything he didn't benefit from or felt he could not manipulate/control. But that's still no reason to divorce.

[kyrie]

Here are things wives listed as their top 2 needs in a marriage in a survey. (See if it feels applicable).

Wives report the 2 priorities for them in a h are fidelity (self explanatory I think) and security. What does "Security" mean, for you?


... "Security" also means our h's not hurt me physically or threaten me or the kids (can't drive unsafely (physical security meaning, a roof over my head). Security also means generally, FEELING SAFE, EMOTIONALLY -

So -- if he belittled me, particularly n front of our children, or prevented me from feeling at peace, or if he'd been "gaslighting" me, I would not be secure or safe in my marriage.

In those cases, I'd have left for good, b/c we are allowed to, (indeed entitled to,) feel safe and sane in our marriages.

Good grief, if our protectors are our biggest detractors and fiercest critics, it's bad news my friend.

I mean, the term "gaslight" comes to mind when I consider your h's behaviors. (google the term, based on the film, if it's unfamiliar to you).

Seems like HE crosses a line and HE goes to nudie bars and HE sees a L, but the mere fact that you seek self improvement is an indictment of YOUR moral failings?

When you GAL even a little, he accuses you of yet another character failing - b/c you are "acting as if nothing is wrong" b/c you are forcing yourself (it's called cognitive behavior therapy, or counting your blessings, etc) into a decent mood.

He seems to want to fight and if you refuse, he's furious, and blames you. But if you engage, he's vindicated, and holds your every flaw over your head like the Sword of Damacles.

Oh Kyrie, I am afraid for you. I am afraid you will never be allowed to enjoy life.

You know I don't mean that in a selfish indulgent way.

Just basic healthy living well, feeling at peace within, and passing on coping skills and joi de vivre to your children...(think of what they'll learn if this keeps on, and how it might push them away from religion)...

I am afraid you are afraid to confront the possibility that he's literally not good enough for you.

Having "another marriage end", does not mandate that you're a bad person.
I have an older sister who is literally the kindest person I know. She's also attractive and funny, she's a nurse and she works hard, etc.

Our dad once referred to her as "the embodiment of good", (which my siblings and I continue to tease her about..."OMG dad, come on!")

Anyhow, Kyrie, she's on her 3rd marriage...why? B/c she's bad? b/c she doesn't deserve to be happy?

B/c the first marriage was a short one, & started at age 18. They were both very young, they made mistakes and perhaps they were not well suited. (Nice guy, though).

The 2nd marriage was 22 years long, with 3 kids and she worked full time and put him thru law school and then.....he left her. He broke her heart...(selfish depressive funny, smart, fool...ex bil)


She's now married again, and although this guy doesn't earn much and isn't perfect - she sure is his priority. I can honestly say she would NOT go back to the one who broke her heart.

She is now, well loved. I tell you this b/c it's not always a moral failing on our part, that ends marriage.

YES It takes two to make a marriage work well, that's true.

But sometimes it only takes one person to end a marriage.

I've got no special hotline to God, but I do know 2 things:

1) your h isn't treating you right.

And 2) we teach our children a lot more about life and marriage by what we endure, what we create, what we make happen than by what we say...

Be at peace, be happy, keep on keeping on. Have courage & strength.

((( )))

Yes, emotional security is non-existent. That's fairly obvious to many who know the sitch. Yes, I know gaslighting and know he does it - manipulation. He says he saw the lawyer but didn't like his options (I'm thinking financial and family losses were too much to bear). He knows that D would destroy him in so many ways. Maybe he knows that's the kick in the @$$ to force change (though, how real could that change be?). I kinda wonder if that's why he says from time to time that he wishes I WOULD divorce him.
Sword of Damocles - nice one!
Yes, the girls have noticed a lot more lately. I think the fighting has spilled out and is louder than before. I wish I could stop myself - I know it is a big factor.
With your sister (and with my sitch), I wonder how much the need for men to really be the provider & "earn things" plays a part in all that. It has to affect them on some level - moreso with certain "types". Thanks for sharing & your encouragement 25years.

[kyrie]

Well, this past session hasn't been much help at all. Mostly the DB coach just said to keep showing gratitude, which H rejects. I did find one thing to connect on... I admitted to him that I have been vacillating in my thoughts about what to do. He actually had some appreciation of that.
Often our talks come down to, "You're not obeying/submitting by doing exactly every single thing I want, including reading my mind". Me: "I'm trying, I need help with this, etc.". The DB counselor only suggested offering gratitude more: such as thankful that he is trying to communicate, appreciating his efforts, leadership, etc.
H rejects that every time. He says I keep making everything about me. The counselor actually encouraged that - keep talking about my positive stuff. That seems counter to what other DB concepts suggest. I'm so sick of the confusion on this. It contradicts itself. I know I'm dense and slow to learn (curses!) - what else can I do here???

[kyrie]

Haven't heard from many of my friends. Hope everyone is doing ok & has a great weekend.

[ARose]

Kyrie, I'm in a bit of a spiral myself so I haven't been contributing to posts. I also started a new job so that has been keeping me busy. Had a huge struggle with anger and then H started on his own angry rants- although I will say it was more anger than spew- a big difference in quality but still hard to handle. I do not want to hijack your thread, just want to say I am still here and keeping quiet because right now anything I say would probably add to the confusion. This is so confusing and difficult. Also H is home now for a visit and the tone of his voice to me is just so unbelievably impatient and condescending, and if I ask him to watch his tone that riles him up even more and my request seems to prove something to him. And it is not that he should watch his tone or that I am trying to set a healthy boundary for myself. Which it is. But to him it seems to prove that he is under attack and there is something wrong with me. This is so hard.

[kyrie]

Totally understand Fo!
But...what do you mean about the difference w/anger and spew?
He may be mirroring you. I've learned that happens, often in more subtle ways than we think, esp. when it comes to criticizing.
It proves to him you're doing to him what you don't want him to do to you: focus on his 'issues' and only see those things. You're just as impatient (or possibly condescending)... at the very least you're impatient about where the M is. And I totally get that. I've learned to recognize that (sometimes)... I'm most frustrated when I expect things to be better by now. A year is soooo long.
He does feel under attack. And so do you. I'm stuck too... sigh.

[kyrie]

Still stuck...still so frustrated.