New night(s)

[melweb]

Kyrie...I need to catch up with your sitch as I have been out of the loop for a bit, but just wanted you to know that I think about you and hope you are hanging in there. From the little I caught, it seems to gone from bad to worse, if that is even possible.

I am going to catch up and check with you later.

Hope YOU are well!

[25yearsmlc]

Why can't I get a grip on this? I keep spiraling around, going back and forth...and I'm mad at him for the same kind of thing. Mixed signals. Mixed heart. Damn it, I need to be hot or cold.

Painful...the whole process is not linear.

I also understand your comment about doing what is morally right (holy) versus what "feels right." A lot of folks confuse the two (although we can always hope they're the same).

It's why I didn't file for a divorce, but did file for a sep...as a mother I had an obligation to our children to keep a roof over their head and h was not in his right mind at the time. Even now, I think there was at least a 50% chance he'd have mortgaged our home for his heroes on the tundra, and considered it a "great investment".

Some asked why I didn't just end the m then & there, but as I told them then, "I want to see myself in the mirror at 80 (or 120??) and know I did the morally right thing to do was, and NOT what was necessarily 'feeling good' for ME."

Because for many of us, feeling that we made the moral selfless choices IS part of what makes us content inside anyhow.

I mean, how great can you feel about your life or yourself, after you know you dumped your ex for someone else AND OR you exploited loved ones, or hurting them, even if it "felt right" at the time??

The tension is between this^^ and knowing that life is short, and feeling held back from spiritual growth b/c someone else in your life is dragging you thru THEIR bog of eternal strife...also sux.

Stay strong and be well.

[Vanilla]

Kyrie

I wanted to observe on forgiveness.

I have a similar view on forgiveness to your WH. Until the sinner seeks forgiveness there is no requirement to forgive. Those who seek forgiveness accept atonement. It is our higher power who has the need to forgive. It is the Sinners own relationship to their higher power which is their responsibility.

If I were WH then if I knew you had spiked with the Bishop I would be very angry with you. It's like blowing the whistle on an A, ineffective at best and damaging to your R at worst. Seek counsel and guidance for you from the bishop.

We do not have to forgive the unforgivable, nor do we have to forgive those who ask for forgiveness. Faux forgiveness makes us feel worse as we know it's faux and inauthentic. society or new age thinking tells us forgiveness resolves everything, only authentic forgiveness resolves and requires many steps. Twelve in fact, it isn't a shortcut to serenity.

Forgiveness is very special and it is for ourselves to ask and to make atonement when that is required by the higher spirit. It is not for others to judge our hearts, the courts may judge our legal and not moral sin, there Is justice but not always compassion or mercy in fair judgement. There can be retribution.

Porn of various sorts is illegal criminal and damaging. Some of it is fake, ridiculous and humorous. Addiction to it is harmful in many ways. Much of it is amateur and free. I confess I don't get it, I am not addicted. I don't get gambling, alcohol, smoking, drugs or chocolate cake excess.

There are the seven deadly sins:


Lust – to have an intense desire or need: “But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Matthew 5:28). I would include porn and girlie bars

Gluttony – excess in eating and drinking: “for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags” (Proverbs 23:21). I would include alcohol and drugs.

Greed - excessive or reprehensible acquisitiveness: “Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more” (Ephesians 4:19). I would include gambling and compulsive spending in this.

Laziness – disinclined to activity or exertion: not energetic or vigorous: “The way of the sluggard is blocked with thorns, but the path of the upright is a highway” (Proverbs 15:19). I would include tv and Internet compulsions.

Wrath – strong vengeful anger or indignation: “A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger” (Proverbs 15:1) lets have rants and spews in this. It is more than anger.

Envy – painful or resentful awareness of an advantage enjoyed by another joined with a desire to possess the same advantage: “Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind. Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation” (1 Peter 2:1-2). Let's have EAs with those with spouses

Pride - quality or state of being proud – inordinate self esteem: “Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall” (Proverbs 16:18). Let's include the codependent and the righteous. I am a sinner I get to number 7 sin and I think I am free and clear and I sin because I judge my WH for his compulsions. I am proud I have no compulsions!


-------------------------------------

Let those without sin cast the first stone.

If the higher power can forgive when the sinner requests that is enough for me.

Breaking the laws of man results in punishment and withdrawal of freedom. No asking for forgiveness will change that. Is another harmed? then if so the laws of man will judge. There will be judgement and punishment of the guilty.

The higher power offers resolution or forgiveness if the sinner requests, desists and atones. It has its own way and that is not for me to say. I only know it is not my role to judge in the court of man or as the higher power. It is not my role to forgive if I am lucky then that gift may be given to me on my request.

I can chose forgiveness for me and ask for my own sins to be forgiven. In twelve steps we atone and ask for our defects to be removed. They are our own defects that ask to be removed not those of our compulsives. Forgiveness is for us.

If we can open our hearts to forgiveness then the higher power may allow it.

V

[kyrie]

Why can't I get a grip on this? I keep spiraling around, going back and forth...and I'm mad at him for the same kind of thing. Mixed signals. Mixed heart. Damn it, I need to be hot or cold.

Painful...the whole process is not linear.

I also understand your comment about doing what is morally right (holy) versus what "feels right." A lot of folks confuse the two (although we can always hope they're the same).

It's why I didn't file for a divorce, but did file for a sep...as a mother I had an obligation to our children to keep a roof over their head and h was not in his right mind at the time. Even now, I think there was at least a 50% chance he'd have mortgaged our home for his heroes on the tundra, and considered it a "great investment".

Some asked why I didn't just end the m then & there, but as I told them then, "I want to see myself in the mirror at 80 (or 120??) and know I did the morally right thing to do was, and NOT what was necessarily 'feeling good' for ME."

Because for many of us, feeling that we made the moral selfless choices IS part of what makes us content inside anyhow.

I mean, how great can you feel about your life or yourself, after you know you dumped your ex for someone else AND OR you exploited loved ones, or hurting them, even if it "felt right" at the time??

The tension is between this^^ and knowing that life is short, and feeling held back from spiritual growth b/c someone else in your life is dragging you thru THEIR bog of eternal strife...also sux.

Stay strong and be well.

Thanks MLC. You've pretty much got it. Not that there's another/next person. Separation is what I'm thinking about.

Tonight he discovered that I took an envelope of cash (a gift from a friend of *mine*) out of the safety deposit box. Ugh. It's gonna be rough. I can't justify it. Money has always been "ours". I took it out after he threatened a divorce.

[trumpet]

Any update, Kyrie?

[kyrie]

Whew. Yeah. Had a long discussion Friday night. He insisted that I seek professional care for my issues. I said, actually I have(this may have been a tactical error!). So of course he wanted to know more. I hedged and deflected. I said I need to apologize because I know I've been gyrating between 2 modes of thought and action and it has me confused and tangled up and I know it affects things. It's something that bothers me when you do it, so I really need to stop and hope to do that soon. That got him all curious and he pressed for me to spill who I spoken to. I refuse. He started guessing (which was kinda laughable), but then he shifted that I must have spoken to a lawyer & he needs to get one now too. I pointed out that he already spoke to a L. He said speaking to one isn't the same as hiring one. I said it's not a lawyer.
He did acknowledge that at least I was communicating in a good way *up to the point about not telling who I spoke with*. Then he turned on the manipulation game and said that proves I'm obstinate and unrepentant (as always) about obeying his request for that info. I said there are reasons why and I look forward to when we can talk about things in a safe way (a quote from the DB coach).
Well that wasn't good enough. This weekend he went to OR to preach at the mission church there. He loves going there - they like him, he feels good doing that and then he's free to take all his masks off & go to the nudie bars, etc.
There's more but that's the brief update.
But...Sunday morning he calls and said I shouldn't take communion at church today because I'm so unrepentant and disobedient. See 1 Corinthians 11:28 for the biblical understanding about going to communion. This confused me...and I said sometimes there's a reasonable explanation that just has to wait. Should I ask the Bishop (since he'd be communing me)? He said that was up to me, but that I should look to him as my pastor, not the Bishop. So much manipulation. It's not a sin to not partake of communion...so it's true better safe than sorry. I did talk to the Bishop (who still has not spoken to H). He said, it's not anything he was aware of so there's no church discipline involved. If my conscience says not to, then don't. If I want to be obedient, then my call. But it's not a problem for me to commune. I abstained...again because better safe than sorry. And at least I can say I did obey.
I also asked H what *exactly* he wanted to know. I don't like the sharpshooting game he does with everything - everything must be criticized and picked apart. I told him I spoke to a licensed counselor who believes in marriage, not divorce who is in Colorado (I have no idea). He said clearly he hasn't taught you anything, especially not humility.

I actually am set to talk to the DB coach one more time tomorrow. I sure hope it helps.



How are you Trumpet?

[trumpet]

Your issues, huh? Remove the plank from your own eye!

He is very delusional. You def. need to keep speaking to the Bishop.

I'm fine. Wife is still her nasty self some days, but I'm much better able to deflect. She made mention today that she might be depressed, and doesn't know what she wants. It's actually movement in the right direction.

I did tell her happy valentines day ("Yeah, yeah, blah blah blah" was her response), got her carnations... she was upset at them. Oh well. She's getting a gift from me to - delivered this week. She can't stop me loving her. I told her I loved her today, and when she was starting to take a nap, I kissed her on the forehead - I'm showing I respect that she's hurting, but I'm still here.

She does make mention often that I don't listen, similar to your H. I think she talks in her head, and since I'm not there, she assumes. Great sermon at church today that really pointed right at her - that God sometimes doesn't answer prayers, and that sometimes it because we're stuck in our sin.

Still concerned about where you are at, Kyrie. Your husband isn't right. If he's a pastor going to nudie bars, he's WAY out in left field, way in the wrong, and in danger to lead others astray, the OPPOSITE of what a pastor is called to do. I'd move up the food chain past the Bishop. It might get messy, but you have to do it. Keep us posted.

[kyrie]

Hey Trumpet,
Thanks. The Bishop is...not always the best to talk to. He has a conflict of interest. I hear you...but what's "past the Bishop"? nothing that I know of...

H is texting me now. "Nothing?" is all he wrong, probably referring to the communion thing.

With your W, how did she react to the kiss? And is the gift persuing?? That stuff is confusing to me.

[kyrie]

ugh...is all he *wrote*. Wow, I'm projecting a bit there!

[trumpet]

I was showing kindness. I have for the past couple weeks. I was a bit annoyed at finding out about the missed call, but explained my concern as if my wife had found browser history that showed I was looking at porn again. She'd be upset and would want to know why I 'fell off the horse'. I would expect it.

She was quiet after that. I just told her it's about me trying to help her through this. I know there were going to be stumbling blocks potentially. Just have to hit them head-on, and work through them.

Her snippiness and words that really put her in a negative light point to internal issues of her conscience. I can't help with that. I just point to the good qualities she exhibits. Her focus on weight loss and looking good is awesome. She is proud of it, as am I. She's not happy when I don't seem to pick up on nonverbal or even verbal cues that she is in a mood to talk. It's been her MO to expect me to know when she's in a mood to be understood. I do listen, but times I start to actually respond - and I think she's more looking for a friend to talk to, without me saying anything. I have learned not to fix things with her, but when to converse, or when to just shut up, and let the silence be uncomfortable.