REALLY trying to detach...but GALing regardless!#4

[- MB -]

MB...there is NO REASON for you to feel embarrassed about the things you shared. You did nothing wrong.

Thanks Anna, but it really is humiliating and so embarrasing to admit the things that I have allowed myself to call "normal" in my life. And, to desperately want to go back there because I'm too afraid to move on. Honestly, I just feel like nothing at this point and I haven't always been like this.

I understand now why you seemed resistant to earlier suggestions about H having unmet needs and what you might need to so to fix that.

it's typically not possible for any normal human being to meet them no matter how hard they try.

I did try to come up with some things that I could work on. I have always felt like if I could have said something differently so he would understand, or do something a different way, then maybe he wouldn't be mad. He constantly changes what the rules are though. I can't ever figure out what it is that he wants and I have TRIED! No matter what I try, it's about as effective as walking outside and beating my head against the brick wall. So, I would come back to my apartment frustrated, the next day I would go over there determined to try harder, listen more, try better, try something! Eventually, I feel like I gave up and just sat there and tried to not to make him mad. I do feel like I gave up. I just didn't know what else to try or how else to make him happy. And he would make sure that I knew it was my fault. The thing is, in my mind I know he's wrong and that none of this is my fault. But, in my heart I still feel like it is and I don't know how to let go of that.

BTW...it is textbook behavior for individuals with personality disorders to be exceptionally charming in the beginning. It's their hook.

Yes, he was absolutely perfect during that time. All of that changed on our wedding day. Before we got married we used to talk for hours on the phone. I can remember more than once telling him "You are the sweetest man I have ever known." Every time I said that, he would get really serious and would tell me that I was wrong and that I just didn't really know him. He would say that he's not a nice man, he's mean. I just thought he was being modest, certainly never occurred to me he was trying to warn me!

[- MB -]

Wonka, sorry that it's taken me so long to respond. It seems that when I opened up and actually wrote down what I have been dealing with, it opened up the emotional flood gates and now the tears come every time I try to put my thoughts down. I would like to thank you for coming over and catching up on what's been going on with me.

You are right that it takes it's toll. At this point I feel beaten down, completely defeated, confused and numb. He tells me how he want's things, I do it that way, then he says it's not right and constantly changes the rules on me. I can't ever figure out what it is that will make him happy. And, the constant arguing. I try so hard not to engage, and he makes it so difficult because he just keeps pushing buttons trying to get a rise out of me. I can either sit there and be emotionally beat up, or argue with him. He just keeps pushing buttons...as soon as I bite on something, he takes off with it. Then, tells me that he's tired of fighting all the time and blames me for it saying "You like to fight." And, I know it's not me, but it's like trying to figure out constant craziness. Trying to figure out exactly how to do things the right way so we can get along. I just don't know what to do anymore.

When I first went NC, it seemed to work in that he missed me. After 5 weeks of NC he even wanted to get rid of ow and reconcile with me. But, now it just seems like he's glad I'm not there. I kept trying to tell everyone that he wouldn't ever reach out to me, that I would have to contact him....that he doesn't respond like everyone else does. I think everyone just thought I was impatient and wanted to persue him, but I just knew that he wouldn't respond like most walk always would. It's just so confusing to me and I feel completely lost and alone in all of this.

I have spent hours tonight reading about NPD. Unfortunately, I will admit that he has SEVERAL characteristics of NPD. He also has so many characteristics of MLC. Perfect! A WAH with NPD in the middle of a MLC. I would ask if it could get worse, but I'm sure it can so I don't dare ask! Some of the of the NPD characteristics that he has can also be MLC though. So, how do you know if he is just in the middle of a horrible MLC and has a few NPD characteristics versus full blown NPD and MLC at the same time? I had origionally thought that so much of his anger came from the 2nd stage of the MLC (which is anger). Once he hit the 3rd stage, replay, the anger seems to be gone. He is more calm now than he had been. I guess I can't really mind read to know if it's because he's through that 2nd stage or if it's because ow is making him happy where I couldn't. I just want to know, when the characteristics overlap between 2 different things, how do you know if it's one or the other and if perhaps he just has a few tendencies toward the NPD but his MLC is making it seem like he has more charactistics on the list than are actually there in his normal state of being. I hope that makes sense.

People with NPD don't really have normal relationships with anyone. They don't have empathy or an emotional connection with anyone. But, he does have that with his kids. He doesn't suck them dry. He is really giving and loving when it comes to them. He cares if they get their feelings hurt. He doesn't take anything from them, only gives to them. That confuses me if he's NPD. The person he takes everything out on seems to be JUST ME. That's what makes me think it's anger from his MLC and he's directing it at his spouse like everyone else...he's just REALLY good at it. And, maybe he's been in that stage 2 for a long time and he's one of the really slow MLCers?? Or, maybe I'm just grasping at straws. I honestly just don't know, but I want to.

[- MB -]

I read your posts about things and started crying myself
I know things are different for everyone but parts of your story resonate

I don't know what to write except to say there a people who have been there. you are not alone.

Thanks for writing Brad! I'm really sorry that anything about my story is similar to yours. I also feel completely embarrased and ashamed of how I have allowed my H to treat me. And, I feel like a complete idiot for wanting him back, yet I do want him back. My friends and family don't know all of the things that he has done. I just don't think I could face them if they knew. It would be so humiliating! I know how H has made me feel and I hate to think of anyone else having to go through that. It just makes it so much worse when it's the person that you love that is treating you that way. They're supposed to be your partner and be there to support you, not tear you down. My H does act differently when there are others around (unless it's just the kids) which says that he knows that what he's doing is not the way he should be acting.

I hate that you had to hear that your W is on a dating site. That had to be really hard to deal with and once you hear it you can't go back and UNhear it. I guess people think they're doing you a favor by telling you those things, but it just hurts so much. My H isn't on a dating site as far as I know. But, then again, he doesn't need to be since he is already seeing an ow.

I do appreciate you reaching out and writing to me. It's always good to hear from you. I hope you had a great night and have some plans to stay busy today. Remember that you're not alone either. I'm here if you need to talk! I promise I will understand and not judge.

[annab74]

MB...I totally understand that it feels humiliating, but please know that no one thinks less of you for it. You did nothing except try to love someone who is very difficult to love. There is no shame in being loving.

None of us are perfect and we always have room to grow, but you are not to blame for your situation. You can't fix your H because you didn't break him. You can rationalize all day long about something you could say or do to make him better, but it probably still wouldn't work. You can't rationalize about something that's not rational.

You mentioned that H has some of the characteristics of NPD, but is not like that with his kids. What about previous relationships? The thing with children of NPD-ers is they are usually seen as an extension of themselves, and as a source for the NPD to feed his needs. The more perfect and wonderful they are, the better the NPD-er is able to feel about himself.

The thing to remember is, all disorders occur on a spectrum and various symptoms can occur to varying degrees. NPDs are capable of emotion, but they experience it differently than a typically functioning person. Their emotions tend to be reactive rather than active. They might feel positive emotions or empathy in response to something that happens, but they don't really initiate emotions. Because they are only reactive, they tend to be the type of people who can walk away from a situation and detach completely. If nothing is happening, they aren't feeling anything. They might be happy to see you when you turn up, but they aren't missing you when you're not there.

MLC *can* mimic some of the symptoms of NPD. The difference is whether or not there is a recurring pattern in the individual's life (such as a pattern of selfish behavior in previous relationships), or if this is all something new and alien.

Bottom line...it's not our place to try to diagnose your H, but just wanted to give you some food for thought and maybe something to talk about with your IC. People can come out of MLC or depression, etc., but personality disorders are pretty much forever.

[NYGal]

MB, how are you today? Did you work last night?

[Imlucky]

hi MB
ive bounced back, I had a bit of a moment thinking and wondering why she could make an effort to date but not to make us a better couple.

its easy to be the new guy and fun dating without the bogging down of real life, I still like micheles tweet about people being a package deal with their own faults.

sometimes I wonder if she will wake up and regret things, I really loved her I was loyal,faithful, committeed to improving things and having a better marriage

I can see that I only upset myself yesterday thinking of things I can not change or control.

I still think we could have resolved a lot of issues with forgiveness and communication & making each other a priority.

I'm going to remain standing and open, I'm not going to pursue her, I think if divorce papers come my way then I can only accept that and let her go in a loving way


with the counselling we talk about my behaviour and setting boundaries or challenging bad behaviour
I can see I contributed by engaging in txt messaging and not stating that txts are not an appropriate form of communication
I can see that name calling and bullying should have been challenged
I can see that when I could see arguments arising I should have left the house or asked to deal with it later when things were calmer

like you before marriage she was the best partner and friend the longer the marriage the more everything was my fault, it was my fault she married me and she racked up credit card debt. if she raged/spewed at me i asked for it.

like other posters my counsellor having read txts and emails and my dairy has come back with she could be depressed, BPD or NPD and that until she gets help or fixes herself i cant do anymore

the part that makes me see light at the end of the tunnel is a lot of people are telling me i seem happier and more easy going and ive lost weight looking better and my body language is a lot better.

I'm not really great at writing or expressing myself. i put a post on my thread if you want to read.im aiming to emerge a better man.

zues keep posting your inspring me, that we can become better people that only a fool would let go!

keep smiling
brad

[- MB -]

You've done a lot of GAL stuff, and I like that you aren't burning bridges by finding another person or something, and I like that you're doing 180s...it's the dropping the rope that I can tell you're resisting. That's ok. This doesn't have to be an overnight thing. It can be a process. But somehow or another you need to keep moving forward and having faith that you'll be ok with or without WAH.

I am definitely having trouble dropping the rope. I just don't seem to want to or be able to do that. I am working on me and one day I might be able to do that, but it's not today. And, some day I might be able to accept the thought that he's never going to be in my life again, but that's not today either. I know that I shouldn't want him back, but right now, that's what I want. I know that's wrong, but it is how I feel.

What worked for me was appreciation. I constantly reminded myself that if I couldn't find happiness with what I had, one crazy woman wouldn't make me all better. I hope you read that sentence closely, it took me a lot to figure that out, and that by itself was worth more to me than everything else I know put together. So please, count your blessings, find your happiness today, and achieve the distance you originally hoped to when you first moved out. You absolutely can do this.

When I first moved out, my intention was to draw us back together, but in a better way. I did want to have peace in my life though. That was one of my goals. I still haven't had that.

I read and reread...and then read several more times your second sentence in this paragraph. And just now I read it a couple more times. I will remember that while I'm in search of my peace and happiness. Thanks Zeus.

[- MB -]

there are online coda meetings. there is a fb group called codependents breaking free....they can link you to the online meetings. They run twice a week.

Thanks Tfish!! That would probably be better since there aren't any meetings close to where I live. I will look them up.

[- MB -]

Well, an interesting thing happened today. I was at home yesterday trying my best to forget it's Valentine's weekend. I was trying to relax so I took a hot bath. Did not work! Anyway, I got out and got dressed, my hair was pulled up in a ponytail and I had no makeup on because I hadn't planned to go anywhere. I heard a knock at the door. Figured it was someone for my kids. A couple of minutes later my daughter was in my room telling me that I needed to "hurry and look as good as you can in the next 2 minutes." Totally confused, I asked her why. She said there was someone at the door for me. Again, confused....
I couldn't believe it when she told me. I still can't believe it. It was ow at my front door. WTH?!!! I turned around and looked in the mirror. There was NOTHING I could do to fix that in 2 minutes! UGH!! First of all, WHY is she at my apartment? Second of all, why in the world would she need to come with I look like crap??? And Third, WHY IS SHE AT MY APARTMENT????? I started to panic, grabbed my brush, then just layed it down. It really was hopeless. Took a couple of deep breaths, then walked downstairs.

I opened the front door and walked outside because I didn't want her in my apartment. we stood outside and talked for a little bit. She started with "I just want you to know that I never meant to hurt you." I just looked at her. Then "And I want you to know that I'm not mad at you." Seriously? Mad at ME? What did I do? I just said "Well that's awfully big of you!" Then she started in with telling me that I left my H alone for FOUR years and hardly ever saw him. She went into my sex life and how we never did that anymore. And, finally told me that my H wanted to move on with his life. Seriously?! I was just standing there listening and thinking of how presumptuous she was to think she had a clue about MY marriage! And, how dare she think that after 4 months, she knows more about my H than I do after 12 years!! I asked her (probably not too nicely) to take her glasses off of her face so I could see her while she was talking to me. She did. Then I corrected her in that I saw my H for HOURS every single day and that she was wrong about the sex because still did that all the time

She started talking about how much SHE loved H and how he's so great. I told her that I love him too and that he's MY HUSBAND and she's basically coming all the way up here to take him away from me. I told her that I can remember when he was great like that to me too. When he used to send ME flowers, take ME places all the time, buy gifts for ME for no reason, always said the sweetest things to ME. I said that I bet he's doing all that for her right now too. She said that he buys her things all the time. UGH! She lifted her hand and showed me the ring that he had given her. It was gold with small diamonds around the band and a larger diamond in the center. She had it on her left ring finger. I told her that he had give me a ring for Christmas. I did tell her that he's not the romantic or nice person that he's trying to convince her that he is. She told me that she was only getting H's side of the story and that she didn't know what to believe any more so she wanted to talk to me so she could figure things out. After a few more questions I told her that I was sure there were 2 girls on the other side of the door that were listening to every word we were saying (they were!) and that we needed to go somewhere else to talk. I asked her what she was driving. She showed me her truck so I walked over to it and told her she was driving. I'm sure she must have thought I was nuts! She tried to tell me that she wasn't a crazy person and that I would be safe with her. I told her that at this point I really didn't care anyway.

We drove just a few blocks away and sat in the Dollar General parking lot. We were there for about an hour and a half and talked. I told her that I figured H would be down there visiting her this weekend. She said that he wanted her to come here. Said she was supposed to be here last night, but she had plans to go out with her friends. Apparently, H didn't like that very much. Well, gee, he is controlling and all! I commented on how much H must have liked that. She admitted that he "seems to be" trying to isolate her from her friends. She said it like she wasn't quite sure that was his intention. I actually laughed. I assured her that if she stayed with him, it would require not only giving up her friends, but also any coworkers, family, kids, pets, EVERYONE that she has ever known, not to mention Facebook, Internet, email and any online games. I'm not sure she believed me, but eventually she will! She told me that he was at her aunts house ONE time and when he left, her aunt commented on how controlling he is. She asked how she could tell after just having met him. Her aunt said it was because he wouldn't let her out of his sight. The ow already notices that he doesn't like her talking to anyone. She said she went into the store to buy cigarettes and talked to someone in the line. When she got in the car he said "It took you THAT LONG just to get cigarettes?" LOL! I told her yep, and it gets worse. She said every morning when she wakes up, there's a text from him already. That he already tries to get her to call every morning while she drives to work. If she doesn't, he calls her and asks her What's up, or What's wrong. I told her that I also had to call as soon as I left the house and talk to him all the way to work and not hang up until he heard me clock in at the time clock. Then, I had to call as soon as I left work and talk to him while I drove home and he heard the dog bark. I know he did this so I wouldn't be able to stop anywhere and heaven forbid SPEAK to another human being!

He has also started telling her that she is doing things wrong. She commented on something that she cooked, he said she put the wrong ingredients in it because it's not how he would have done it. HE DOESN'T COOK!!! He also corrected her when she mentioned a dish that her family makes, apparently he thought they named it the wrong thing. He has gotten mad and yelled at her a few times already. I told her that he's starting REALLY EARLY on her because he didn't start trying to control and isolate me until right after we got married. That he changed the day that we married. She said that's what he says about ME too. Grrrrr......I did not change!

She did say that he didn't trash me to her. He told her that I'm a really nice person and .................yep, you guessed it.....he loves me, but he's not IN LOVE with me. Apparently they sit and talk about me. I really can't stand the thought of him talking to another woman about ME! Guess that's just one more thing I get to have no say over. So tired of this! He even told her where I live. Why would he do that?? I asked her how she knew, and she said he told her and that they drive by here all the time. WHAT? WHY? She said that she already knew, but she didn't tell him that. Apparently, if she goes to his house unannounced and he's not home, she drives by here looking for him. I guess everyone drives by my house and I sit here clueless!

She asked me why I moved out. I told her it was because he was mean to me, always picked fights with me, was controlling, and that I couldn't even take a breath without him telling me that I was doing it wrong and that I needed to have some peace in my life. I told her that it was never my intention to NOT be married to him or for me to be away for so long.

I asked her about Christmas. Remember that we were back together from Dec 20 to Jan1st. He told me that he called and talked to her on the 20th broke things off with her, then she kept texting him but he never responded. What she said was that he called on the 20th and told her that his dad was back in the hospital and not doing well. That he needed to go there and take some time to work some things out for him. Then, she said "Do you have any idea how hard it was to not hear from him for 12 days? It's like he just dropped off the face of the Earth." I just looked at her. I mean really? 12 whole days!??? I said " Do you have any idea how hard it is when someone isolates you from everyone you have ever spoken to to in your life, and dosn't speak to you for over 4 months?" Yea, I'm sure those 12 days must have been just awful for her. On the night of the 1st, when he dumped me again, and she showed up....I asked her what he was saying to her when he was talking to her. He told ME that he was mad at her and told her she had really bad timing. I guess technically he didn't LIE to me. He did tell her that. She said that he was mad because she showed up and ruined his PLAN and he told her "You have really bad timing, she was just about to leave. If you had waited just one more day everything would have been fine." It really hurt to hear that he was PLANNING to dump me all along. It was never his intention to break up with her, just try me out again for a few days. That just makes me feel like nothing more than a piece of trash that he never had any intention other than throwing me away.

She asked me if we were getting divorced. I told her that we hadn't ever talked about it. Apparently, he tells her that we were already getting divorced before she ever came up here and apparently we talk about it all the time.

I didn't really ask her much, I just answered the questions that she asked of me. I guess I just didn't know if I felt strong enough to hear those answers, so I figured it best not to find out. When she dropped me off at my place, I asked what her plan was now. She said she didn't know if she wanted to drive by there and blow his place up, just drive home, or go over there and just see how it plays out. I guess she opted for the last one. I got a call about 2 hrs later. She sounded upset and I could tell that she was driving. She said that they got into a fight about it and he was furious, yelling and screaming at her about how crazy she was for coming over here. So, she was driving home but wanted to warn me that he was mad at her for coming to my house, and mad at me for talking to her. She suggested I leave and make myself "hard to find" for tonight. I was already going over to my sister's house to play cards, so I went ahead and did that. At some point in time I guess she changed her mind and decided to go ahead and spend the weekend with him. Her truck was in his driveway when I came home.

I hate to admit it, but I was actually really happy when she called and said she was driving home. Not happy that she was upset, but happy because HE was upset! I was happy that HE wasn't going to have a great Valentine's weekend. That maybe HE was finally going to get to experience at least one night of pain and heartache. That happiness is gone now. It's a shame they couldn't at least let me have that.

[Tyler12]

MB. I am sorry you had to go through that. I don't want to imagine OM showing up to chat because I am positive one of us would end up in the hospital. And since I have no shame in fighting dirty I don't believe it would be me. It took an amazing amount of courage and self control from you ( in my eyes) to sit and talk to her.
Although In doing so I hope you received some clarity as painful as it may have been. Moved yourself closer to self peace.

it is hard for almost everyone here to stop beating themselves up on what they could have done or what they shouldn't have done. To stop asking themselves what they can do and should t do. In doing so I think it makes it harder to keep going on.
The events and actions of the past are exactly that. The past and can not be changed, altered or removed in any way shape or form.
So that leaves moving forward and we have to do so for ourselves to make our own lives better, for ourselves not for S.

I like yourself I think have a hard time believing we can be happy without our S, but we can MB. Maybe not today or tomorrow but we will! And I will be here to help as much as I can until we are