WW, My Addiction, Patience, and HOPE Part II

[trumpet]

Thanks, Squiggy. You're in the aftermath of the storm, so I appreciate the advice.

I haven't contacted her. I won't.

The best I felt was when I was on my own, DB'ing with some separation, and working just on me. When my W interacts, and shows hints of old relationship, we get back to hidden expectations.

I think when she starts to really work at US things will get better. The struggle is now ME - how to continue to show love and respect, when I'm not shown that in return.

I have NO problems at work, and in my other relationships. I'm apt to think 'Am I like this with everyone?', but that's just not the case - I don't have BEST friends, but I make friends easily, and am able to put people at ease - I'm a salesperson! I'm good at it. That's why I went into sales.

How come I can fail so miserably with one person, the person I love the most? Is it that she's got her demons to face, and I'm just in the way right now?

I keep thinking back to the 3 months we have - it's getting in the way of just being 'me' and not worrying about the future. In 3 months, we have to decide to divorce, or reconcile. Doing NO work on the marriage, and just sitting around on my hands, makes it so, so difficult.

Would you recommend Retrouvaille, Squiggy?

[Squiggy]

The best I felt was when I was on my own, DB'ing with some separation, and working just on me.

It really was, wasn't it? I got over the anxiety prior to, and it all returned in a different format. You have to remain strong and show her the path without forcing her to take it. Letting go of control was rough, remember?

It's difficult with her precisely because you love her so much. Your being here is a testament to that fact. You have 3 months until the D takes another step forward. It also doesn't mean anything until you say it does. Stay strong.

I would highly recommend Retrouvaille. We use what they taught daily. You two might not be ready for it though. There's a ton of resentment built up within your wife that could possibly get in the way. They say a spouse only needs to be willing to listen for it to be effective. I'm not sure where your W is with it.

I saw you posted

That's really difficult for me - my heart was never with the computer, but to my W, my heart was never with her. Her heart is still with OM.

Have you done more thinking about the judgment you have? Despite what spiritual, moral, or value base you come from, the impact upon your wife was equivalent to adultery. She truly felt as though you were cheating with people on a screen and replacing her. That ties into forgiveness by helping you to really see the A as a symptom of the old M, and it can easily be connected to the lack of closeness and affection she felt from your addiction to porn, which she filled through the A. Focus on the impact of the situation, not whether it is right or wrong.

[TxHubby]

TxHubby - No, wayward is no longer contacting OM. At issue is transparency - she feels like I have no right to access her phone or email. That trust and respect for her is something I should naturally have.

You are right and I'm glad that there is no OM. People who think they can DB will an A is active are deluding themselves. Ain't gonna happen. The advice to back off on A's and let them run their course is terrible advice. Why? Because while you're saying nothing, the AP is filling their heads with everything they want to hear and the betrayed spouse is offering no counter-argument.

As far as transparency I'm of the mindset that the ONLY privacy in a marriage is when you're going #2. Other than that there are no private emails, texts, friends, etc.

Being married you're not a "she" and "I". You're a "we". Everything is "we" and "us". If she doesn't understand and respect that then she should never be married and die alone some day. Marriage is a beautiful union of two lives into one. It's the very meaning of the concept of "marriage". You don't keep secrets from each other except about surprise birthday parties or Christmas presents.

My wife and I know everything about each other. We PIN protect our phones, as everyone should but we know each other's PIN and use each other's phones all the time. No secrets. We have only 1 bank account and it's in both our names. Everything is in both our names. That's marriage.

I can't wave a magic wand and make your wife understand that. I really wish I could because I'm a HUGE fan of marriage and love winning out in the end. It's a sh!tty cynical world we live in and so many marriages fail these days. Personally I believe it's because the digital age (which is where I make my living) has produced an entire culture of narcissists and everything is me me me.

[JGuy]

The best I felt was when I was on my own, DB'ing with some separation, and working just on me. When my W interacts, and shows hints of old relationship, we get back to hidden expectations.

I think when she starts to really work at US things will get better. The struggle is now ME - how to continue to show love and respect, when I'm not shown that in return.

I totally relate to this, trumpet. It's exactly where I'm at right now too. Somehow, it appears that we are back in sync again.

I have been feeling a lot of anger around hidden expectations since Tuesday when my W said that he has chosen to go NC with the OM again. I really, really want to ask her about it. It's so hard to be patient and not apply pressure. I am trying to take a hard look at this tendency in myself and keep reminding myself that my W doesn't owe me anything. I just have to suck it up and give her tons of space. Hardest thing I have ever had to do...

[Mowgli]

She's not ready, Trumpet.

I guess I just don't understand your apologizing for looking at the phone. Didn't she agree to allow you access a few weeks ago?

So you look at the phone and she immediately goes off on you and threatens to contact the L and then you apologize for it?

Please don't let her control you with fear. Apologizing for doing something that was previously discussed because she got mad is not a good way to get respect back, IMO.

plus, if she has all of these scenarios where you are only allowed to look at the phone if certain criteria is met, that is not a transparency policy.

At that point, if it's me, I'm not even willing to say she's being transparent and would continue to detach and GAL.

Go over to the MLC section and pull up job's thread on "detachment" and look at it. If you have, look at it again.

IMO You are not piecing right now. W is fence sitting again... She's using the D stay the same way she used the other document...

Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong and I'm reading the sitch wrong.

It just feels like right now you are stuck in that distancer/pursuer cycle:
1)You detach.
2)She dips her toe (i.e. let's see how things go)
3)You jump in with both feet.
4)she jumps out.

Doesn't this feel pretty close to how things went the last time when you were served? It does to me, I guess.

[sandi2]

I think when she starts to really work at US things will get better. The struggle is now ME - how to continue to show love and respect, when I'm not shown that in return.

I wrote to another newcomer about what I'm going to say again. And, to be clear, I am don't mean to imply the betrayed H has to right to feel what he feels and/or have the needs he has. What I see from where I sit are betrayed H's who finally gets what he wants. Or at least what he thought he wanted. There was a time he though he'd nearly give his right arm if she'd just end the A and say she'd stay in the M. Okay, so she does. But it doesn't ease him enough. He realizes he needs more. He needs an apology. No, he needs more. He needs to see real remorse in her. Wait, he needs more. He needs to see her trying harder, putting more effort into the MR. Oh, and there's more. He needs her to help him heal from all that she's done.

Maybe I didn't paint the LBH in such a great light, huh? If indeed, she is legit and has ended all type of contact with the OM, then this is much how she feels when she is going through her own kind of hell, is her H singing......."what about me, me, me, me, me"?

Don't get me wrong here, Trumpet. I have been one of those who have cautioned you, pointing out the things the WW needs to do. But what seems to be happening is either she is not really in all the way (and I think that is typical feelings for the WW when she first agrees to end the A) or you are applying too much pressure all at the same time.

As I told the other newcomer, you cannot look to her to save you, not right now. You cannot look to her to save the MR, past ending the A and getting through the withdrawals......Not right now. If she really is going NC and withdrawals, then the woman is doing all she can probably handle at the moment.

I think when she starts to really work at US things will get better. The struggle is now ME - how to continue to show love and respect, when I'm not shown that in return.

I agree about the respect. In what context are you referring her not respecting you? Is it her not working with the transparency? Perhaps she has never seen it from your perspective. If I had not been on the board, I am sure I would not have been so willing. Perhaps she has never thought it being a lack of respect for you, since she only sees it invading her privacy. And since her own Pastor doesn't endorse it, why would she?

Let me say this about her showing you love and working on the R. Again, I know I have been strong in telling you how important it is that the WW is willing and agrees to H's conditions at the point of reconciliation. What I am not sure about is if you were expecting her throw herself 100% into all of these things at the getgo, or if this frustration all stems from her lack of transparency. Just in case anyone reading this has misunderstood anything I have said along these lines.....let me try to clarify. I still say yes to all of it. However, she has to do a heck of a job internally before she can start putting energy on the external.....such as showing you love (aside from the NC with OM), such as working on areas you want to see from her, etc. She can, and should show respect from the first minute of reconciling. It doesn't take that much to be respectful. I did not show a lack of respect (that I recall) when I decided to stay, but I still had tons and tons of resentment. I remember my H saying he expected me to put 110% effort into the MR. Well.....now I get it, but at that time, he might as well as chopped off my head b/c I was little more than a walking corpse as it was. I was too messed up to put that kind of energy into our R. All my energy had to go into fighting the withdrawals and the depression. Make sense? The more pressure he placed on me.......and I saw nothing from him (a different case, maybe than you), it actually made it worse.

So what I am saying to you and anyone else facing a new reconciliation with a WS, is to make sure you are not hounding them and/or expecting too much too fast. She cannot take care of your pain, just as you can't take care of hers. Each of you have your own work cut out for you. The LBH cannot sit back and expect her to do it all. (And I am not saying you have, by any means. Just speaking to the board as a whole here).

I have NO problems at work, and in my other relationships. I'm apt to think 'Am I like this with everyone?', but that's just not the case - I don't have BEST friends, but I make friends easily, and am able to put people at ease - I'm a salesperson! I'm good at it. That's why I went into sales.

How come I can fail so miserably with one person, the person I love the most? Is it that she's got her demons to face, and I'm just in the way right now?

Well, number one, you don't live any of those people. You don't hold them accountable for their behavior, and you don't have the same expectations from them as you do for your own W. And......I'll just bet when you are showing what a great salesman you are, those customers have not seen you on an intimate level or even seen you at you worst, like your W has. Most of all, you aren't in love with them and your job and other relationships are not the same as your MR.

Look, I am not saying you've messed up. I am not saying she isn't legit. I am just trying to get you to see how you have to give her patients. It may not be fair, but it won't work if you demand more than she. An so right now. If she simply refuses to be transparent, then you may have to deal with how it is. If you have seen that there have been NC, and you keep demanding more.........it may be the undoing, I really don't know. It may be worth your money to talk to one of the DB coaches about it.

[trumpet]

Lots to ponder. Thanks Sandi.
If I truly detach, I won't care about her not showing her phone to me. If we want a relationship, she'll want to be transparent, like I am.
So, how do I find my happy? I have to find my happy place.

Being neighborly without deep conversation. Not caring if she wants to engage fixing us, even if we have a 3 month time limit. I have to keep telling myself she was the one who wanted the divorce, for years she talked about it. She filed. She served me. She did the hold on the divorce. She hates me (supposedly). She gets angry at me all the time.

I feel lonely sometimes. I Want to see her forgive me. I Want to have a physical and emotional relationship with someone. Lots of I's in there. This journey seems to always come back to me and how I live my life, how I respond to adversity. I can control my actions. Not hers. I need to focus on how I act, and not expect personal fulfillment from an uncaring wife.

[sandi2]

I failed to see your post about the phone. I really hate that happened. Pretty much places you two back further than square one. And the really scary part is that she will be at her most weakest after this, b/c she has said the D is back on. That leaves little reason for her to continue honoring the NC. All you can do is pray that she doesn't, b/c every time she does contact him then the withdrawals have to start all over again.

I agree about her giving her phone when she says.... not being real transparency. It's not! But either way, it looks as if there will be a start over......if there is going to be a reconciliation. The fact that she's changed her logins or passwords is not a good sign. I would be very shocked if she was doing it to keep you out just to have power over it.....if there is nothing to hide. And if she is that stubborn and unpliable, it is going to be very difficult for you to ever know what's going on for sure, even if she was doing nothing wrong.

I am so sorry for you, Trumpet. You have a tough decision, and I don't think it is wise, at this point, to tell her you will agree to her terms.

Being neighborly without deep conversation. Not caring if she wants to engage fixing us, even if we have a 3 month time limit. I have to keep telling myself she was the one who wanted the divorce, for years she talked about it. She filed. She served me. She did the hold on the divorce. She hates me (supposedly). She gets angry at me all the time.

.

I honestly don't think staying under the same roof while waiting on a D is good at all. But do whatever your lawyer advises. I believe after all that has happened recently, it would take a miracle to change her mind with you both living in the same house. She doesn't need to see you or even come in contact with you. Drop the rope, go dark.......whatever you want to call it, but get away from her and stay away until she comes to you and is ready to do what you require of her. You would have three months, if you don't waste time.

Whenever a LBH tries to push his WW into reconciling, and she's not ready, it doesn't have a good ending. If she though you had seriously had enough of this kind of behavior from her.........it might.....it MIGHT just make her stop and think. However, this old stuff about going back and detaching again, etc., is not going to do a thing to change this sitch, IMHO.

[trumpet]

Thanks, all!

new thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2650116&#Post2650116