do nothing or what

[Squiggy]

Ok, now that I've made it through all 8 pages, I'm caught up with what you have available. Let me preface by saying I didn't have to stand as long as you, and I cannot highlight enough the strength you've shown.

Before I go into too much, I'm going to attack this right here:

I need to try this in the friend zone.

You are her HUSBAND. I can't put it exactly as MrBond used to tell me, but remember this point. Be her friend, but not her Bro. Get what I mean? One of the first things that drew my W back to me was seeing me return to that friend who was her Rock. However, it was made very clear within my boundaries to her that I am not her friend, and that if we were to divorce, we would simply be parents to our S. I never let it be interpreted as anything else.

It seems like a lot of information is missing from earlier deleted posts, so I'll go off of what I've read.

What are your 180s? What are you goals? I saw some listed, but they really seemed more like listing characteristics and not as much actions. I ask these to refocus because you went from "I'm detached" (been there) to "I don't think I'm as attached as I thought I was" (been there too) to "Holy crap this is absorbing me so much and draining my lifeblood" (Check - been there). DBing is about action. Look at the words used in the book, on the website, and in the forums. Your 180s and goals should be worded in such a way as well.

Some suggestions as I look through your posts:

If I were you when your W got annoyed, irritated, or whatever she was at that point in time with your sons, I would've stepped in, not waited for her to react, and consequence the children right then and there. Be the DAD. You picked a great way to intervene with the children. Now work on not waiting and act.

Call me a little biased, but I do not like that friend, and I fully admit I could be wrong. It SCREAMS of at least an EA. I keep seeing you dismiss and minimize it, not only in your thoughts but also in your words. Do you really want your wife talking to another man about her relationship with you? How many times do you hear of another man taking advantage of that weak moment in her life? How many songs are written about exactly this? Us guys seem to be programmed to swoop in and rescue the fair damsel in distress.

Control: Stop being a wet noodle. Cadet said it earlier in the thread that it really seems as though your wife is your puppet-master. I got that sense as well. I see evidence of pursuing, persuading (even though it may not seem like it to you), and approval-seeking. Have you read No More Mr. Nice Guy? I've skimmed through it and seen how it has helped some people here. It could be something to really help with your assertiveness/confidence while also working on boundary setting and communicating. You already are a strong man. Now it is time to find the tools to help you see and do it.

Detachment is a b*tch to achieve. I can tell you that it hurt me to do so, but it got easier over time. It hurt to see my W struggle with her getting behind in a car payment and losing her car insurance. It hurt to have her served divorce papers during those struggles. However, I learned that it was what she chose. I didn't choose her actions for her. I didn't choose the path she took. I am only responsible for my actions. Between sandi's list and Livestrong's Developing Detachment article, I was able to achieve (most of the time) detachment and finally breathe, focus, and really begin to change.

Ok, I think that is long enough for now! You are in a great situation where your wife is at home with you. Time to kick it into high gear and get moving forward while you have that blessing. I'll be keeping an eye on your thread and help as much as I can. By no means an expert, but if one thing helps you, then we can call it a success.

[roist]

Wow. Thank you for a fresh perspective and the little 2x4 to rattle me. I have four previous threads that I had removed as a precaution and also to change my focus. So I understand you have limited info but you have the best insight she has ever given me in all of this. And it has been a year since we had any sort of R talk.

I don't have the time now to rewrite a summary of our story. But the big lines of it are. I met my W when she was an exchange student over 20 years ago. She stayed a further 8 years with me before we mov?d back to her country, where we eventually got married and had two sons. Things have been gradually declining the last four yea s or so. I became depressed without knowing why but my IC believes it is mostly related to my M.I was stressed about our R but incapable to react due to depression.when my dad died a year and a half ago I realised I couldn't go on like this. So I hot treatment for my depression. I was finally willing and able to talk about anything and everything, an issue she had had all along. But this did this no longer seemed something she wanted from me.

She was closed off emotionally to me. Her inappropriate friend was present and one night she exchanged loads of texts with him. I blew up and left.For 15 minutes. It was all the time I needed to decide that I wanted to save my M. That is when I went into overdrive and made all the rookie mistakes.

Sometimes there seemed to be slight progress. And things did seem to be improving. Until two days before we went on holidays.TThe holidays were like she was there with her kids and I with mine. Things plateaued off then. No worse no better.

My other threads speak a lot about me coping or not with the limbo.With the mixed signs. With her not taking action one way or another.

You are right about this inappropriate friend. I have had the time to study this and I have studied it closely.V closely.Too closely. I genuinely believe to him she is just a friend. As he has been a preoccupation of mine I believe that although they have not depassed the limits of friends I have not had reason to REact . That being said last summer I set a boundary that I would not be in a R with her if there was any other R. I will stick to that. Cadet said this guy is just a pawn and not my focus. I could write for days about that but I am sure nothing has happened between them. Yes that could change.

Have taken loads of actions and 180s of my behaviour.Before I was depressed, grumpy, distant, hostile. I was always present with my kids but not fully present. I am none of that now and still working on improving.There are loads of little actions, too many to number.

I will restudy this. Thanks for reminder.

I totally agree with you about the friend zone, but I meant it just for the improvement in communication so not to push. I already have intended the not being friends if we separate/divorce. I honestly have suffered so long now,that I think that once/if it reaches the point where it affects them directly I will be hard to convince to let her back.

One of my struggles has been to know which path to follow in my interactions.

Hope that helps and if you want anything more specific please don't hesitate to ask me.

[roist]

By them being affected I mean my sons

[Zephyr]

Good morning roiste. Read everything from last few days, i will make some time at lunch to post some thoughts!

I hope you are having a good day!!!!

[roist]

I'm OK Z. Still have a bug so I am not doing much, which is not what I need. I know I have posted a lot about this exchange but it is the first thing to happen in my situation in a while and if it is the start of a change in either direction I wanted as much insight as possible.

You know I appreciate your feedback and honesty that is probably one of the biggest helps that I have had to keep going.

Well if you are going to make time to write, I need to clear my schedule to have reading time!! I like your long posts so don't hold back because of this joke.

Cheers mate

[Squiggy]

Great to hear the changes you've brought within yourself. With that clarification it really does sound like you're moving forward in that aspect, which can be so so hard to do. I was in a very similar situation with my son, and he became my sounding board for the changes I made within myself. Eventually, after I let go, he became THE reason to change. Amazing how much that went towards drawing her back as well.

Cadet is correct that the other guy is not your focus. Your boundaries and self-respect are the important parts. It's all about what you will or will not tolerate.

Here is my thinking on which path to take. You basically have two choices: save your marriage or choose to end it. You are the one to decide, but I'll try to give some suggestions for the former.

Choosing to save it is a harder path to take. After reading your last big post, I am a bit more convinced that you really need to be that solid, strong man and father in your home with a good PMA. No doubt your wife has a significant level of resentment towards you from the depression years, which could be also affected by cultural or FOO issues as well. She will need to see consistency in your changes for however long she needs.

Read this over and over again. Print if off, put it in your wallet, put it somewhere at work. Memorize it.

All we have are our actions. We must display strength, loving kindness and compassion. If they see us living well, being a great parent, treating them well, they may reconsider their position, lower their guard, second guess their resolve and open up to us. For love to flourish and grow we have to tend the garden. Good soil (our home life), water (our behavior) and plenty of sunshine (our loving kindness) is what we must provide as our wife's stabilize and recover from their emotional struggle.

And I asked her not to try convince here of anything but just to know, what she held against me or why she detached. I did not talk enough. I was bad at communicating. She felt she had to decide every thing on her own.

I remember having that talk with my W right before she moved out. Worked on every single item she listed, even when she was living 2.5 hours away. Your wife's openness is a gift that gives direction. You mentioned in another post that she complained you never talk about your day. If she is open to it, do it. Start off by checking in with her and validating (DBing is life). If she is open to it, experiment with casual conversation about your day. That's talking and communicating. The parenting I mentioned in my last post is an example of deciding and doing.

What are some other things you can do?

In doing these things you can hopefully keep the door open for her and create an environment where she can feel supported.

[Zephyr]

my couple of thoughts....

First is on your mood at home. I think many have touched on this so I won't go all coo-coo about it. the biggest issue I see is that right now your wife is reaching for anything to tip her scale. if you are showing her a bad mood or lack of content with your current situation and marriage, she will see / use it as just another sign that things are done – like you want it too.

I actually remember those words come out of my wife’s mouth 3 years ago or so...It was an eye opener for me. my bad moods, sour, resentfulness, depression, anxiety - whatever it was, showed through on all that I did. I could be doing something nice for her, but the resentment shown through. And she translated it into ‘Zephyr wanted out’. Right or wrong, it was her viewpoint, right. It was the way she saw things.

If you are in a bad mood, get out. do what you have to do to re-center yourself. I think that is a huge part of the GAL strategy. you not focusing on her, rather on yourself. you not worrying about your marriage for 3 hours because you are at an entertaining show OR WHATEVER. when you leave there, be grateful for that...today was a new day...all that jazz!!!!!!!!

Hell, last night I had to leave the house, she was fighting with the boys. Once I backed her up, I didn't feel like sitting in the stew that she was brewing so I mentioned I was going to the store. While there I was unwinding, got those tears of WHAT THE PHUCK AM I DOING THIS FOR, out of my system ... re-centered and went home (besides I needed more ice creasm). you need to be able to adapt, let things slide off of your back and not allow you to be knocked off of your game. I think that a lot of the lack of communication that we've spoken about and that squiggy is touching on above, shows through here...are you willing to just 'be' and open up or are you showing your mood and shutting down (you know I speak from experience here). It is not a bad idea to try an start the conversation more, BE PRESENT and try to enjoy the interaction.

It has taken the last year for me to get my wife to the point where she tells me about her day and asks about mine (although sometimes I start by telling her about mine)...yes, it sounds like she wants to have this conversation instead of has to. It took lots of time. lots of short quippy ones or 'fines' (then done) at first (don't take the bait when she gives you the 'fine' and nothing else, you can continue on with yours or show a sign of appreciation for her at least 'trying'). If you are present and genuinely WANT to hear it instead of feel obliged to listen, it will show through and will absolutely-positively show.

It doesn't seem like your wife does a whole lot of the spew (which might make it harder to let things go when she does criticize). Who knows what she is going through, remember most of the time this sort of struggle comes from a place of hurting...so compassion; just keep in mind your attitude is contagious and WAY more obvious that we think it is at the time.

Second thing. I am going to do a divergence from my normal-normal here. I want you to think about something for a while.

Are you thinking about separation like she is? If you are, don't feel guilty about it, not judging (I never will). maybe you can go out to a nice quiet place and just think about it for a bit. No kids around. no wife, no pressure. just Roiste and a Beer or something. Think about what it will mean to you. What will be different with you and how you live your life. come up with a list of things. Look at them and then make a goal, that you are going to start to do one of those things.

Why, it is important for you to stop looking at your situation as how to / or what we can do to fix it. How is your marriage ever going to get back to where it needs to be for you to be satisfied. Remember, this...your marriage is already dead. We've read this how many times on this board, but we thought it didn't apply to us - me & you, because our wives never said those words, that they wanted a divorce. We were wrong. Our old marriage is dead.

It is time for Roiste to start moving your feet. I realize how great of a job you are doing with your GAL - Great Improvement from a year AGO, KUDOS! This is your next step. Moving forward with your life, not just finding things to do...but actually moving ahead with some kind of action.

- Your job, you've expressed how you might want to switch from being self-employed...how far have you looked at this. I realize that finances and the uncertainty are a big deal, your wife is looking for work...does this tell you something or not...might be worth talking to her about both sides of this fence...might be a great excuse to try out your desire for communication.

- have you ever spoken to a lawyer? are you a citizen of the country you live? This might be a big deal if there were to be a separation (sorry not trying to pry too deep, genuinely curious). Have you done any sort of thoughts on how to separate finances.

- have you looked at separate living arrangements, seriously go and look at a couple of apartments and see what it would feel like, even if it is looking through apartment guides with floor plans to see where you and the boys will spend Saturday night or whatever...you get where I am getting at here...try it on for size. Just go see what it would feel like walking up the stairs of a new flat.

- Social circle. I know this is difficult to do, but it is really, really important to start building that list of friends up so that we can start living our lives a little fuller. social interactions with other men, it is really a big deal to help strengthen our masculinity. it could be going to a ball-game, bar, playing pool, whatever it takes. Meetup is a neat idea to just jump in with both feet...kinda scary to widen the circle but it is a must.

These are all things you can start to do to look at what Roiste's life will be like 'IF"

While your wife is stuck, there is no reason for you to be stuck right alongside of her. There is no reason for you to sit with her and her depression, confusion, unhappiness, wallow, blah. Start the process of moving on, what will it feel like…pretty scary still.

Your wife gives me the impression that she has no idea what to do next. Are you giving her that same impression here. Are you giving her any reason to show her that you are stuck too. She is basically telling you right off right now she wants out. Now we have THOUGHT that might be what she has wanted, but you have been acting AS-IF for the interim.

Now here I am back, I am not talking about giving up. I am talking about letting some more slack out of that rope we have been holding onto so very tightly. You have done, tried, wished and hoped so much. How about taking a deep breath and letting go a bit.

Keep the focus on you and your boys (yes I realize how hard it would be if there were a split, with respect to the boys...you are not alone with this). Your wifes journey, who knows where it will lead right now...she doesn't know, you don't know. Your journey thought...you have a pretty big hand in where that will go.

With all of that said, I still believe that all of what I just typed - in conjunction with compassion, understanding, willingness to give despite receiving nothing in return...all that I've spoken about 100 times...is still fundamental in not generating more resentment and to show you still love this woman with all of faults and her dark places, it is something she may never ever thank you for, who knows though maybe she will someday.

I don't want to rehash all of this, you've got enough of THOSE kinds of posts from me to last a lifetime.

I applaud all that you've accomplished so far and await to see what you come up with!

[roist]

Thanks Squiggy,
Your two replies really helped. Living in the situation we realise things but just need that little push in the right direction from time to time.Or even a swift kick in the behind.
I have gone back over my actions/goals and 180s. For various reasons some have slipped a notch or two. I will take a few days to put structure on my thoughts and to formulate what I am going to DO.

Zypher,
Good insights as usual. I have longtime accepted that my M is dead, just like all our cyber buddies here. The only difference is our W's were not running out the door. Anyway if we do recover it will be a new M a new at. I don't want the old one back.
I'll probably reply more after I have thought about it all more.

Thanks to both of ye and mutatia's description I have food for thought. I will post an action plan and my thinking behind it. I will use what she has said, what ye and others have said, what I know/think myself and other sources of guidance. It is time to up the game.

I will work hard on what she said. Yes for her but in reality they are what I wanted too! Furthermore they are part of the me I want to be regardless of who I am with and they are what I want for my sons. They compliment the traits roadmap already outlined.

Whereas overall I am buoyed and empowered by this thinking,a part of me is disappointed. I knew these grievances. I knew she wanted those things from me. I have answers, reasons and excuses, probably valid, but that is not good enough. I have improved even after slipping back, but now it us time to become the real me.

Cheers guys.

Anyone else with tips/comments are welcome to join in, especially some female insight on how to be a stronger man of the house/stronger dad. That is my next step.

[mutatio]

Squiggy, Zypher, nice posts, very insightful. roiste and I share some similarities so I can use your advice also. Thank you guys.

Roiste, hang in there buddy. Squiggy suggeestion of displaying your new behavior on you kids is brilliant. You wife lives your changes without the defense of it being something she has to force a reaction to, a back door to affect change, brilliant. Definitely a new one for my playbook. Zypher wanting you to keep the focus on you and your boys is a win win choice. No matter what happens you and your sons win.

My advice is to listen to those two posts. Please keep posting, we are here when you are feeling the pain of rejection and question your resolve. Be strong roiste, be well

[Squiggy]

Anyway if we do recover it will be a new M a new at. I don't want the old one back.

Exactly. It's broken. It didn't work. Learn from it and move forward.

I will work hard on what she said. Yes for her but in reality they are what I wanted too!

IMHO I disagree with the second sentence. I firmly believe you need to do it for yourself. These changes are for you. Your W just happened to be the one to point them out. So maybe scratch that sentence from your head and focus on:

Furthermore they are part of the me I want to be regardless of who I am with and they are what I want for my sons.

No matter what happens between you and your W, you will always have you, and you will always be their father. This is a place of strength from which to work.

Zephyr - such an amazing post.