WW, My Addiction, Patience, and HOPE Part II

[trumpet]

Session with pastor last night.
Wasn't counseling as it was him trying to catch up with us.
W reiterated that W doesn't love me, that she still has feelings for OM, but NC is in effect. W cannot forgive me for the porn and 'crap' I put her thru for 15 years. I have forgiven wife, but have a hard time with hurt and resentment. W feels that because I'm still hurt that I have not completely forgiven her.

He challenged me on my comments that I have forgiven my W. Since I have brought up the affair in the past week, have I truly forgiven her? I think he was right - I have to think thru what it truly looks like to forgive someone.

He was equally, if not more tough on my W. He pinpointed to her what I've told her (but shouldn't have): she has been forgiven, and she must learn to forgive me for my adultery (he and my wife agree that my pornography is just as bad as her adultery). How can she forgive herself? That she will need time to forgive, and that I need to give her the space to do that.

If I choose to want complete Reconciliation, I'm going to have to acknowledge to my W that what I did was just as bad as what she has done. That's really difficult for me - my heart was never with the computer, but to my W, my heart was never with her. Her heart is still with OM.

The session ended with each other getting asked what a loving, selfless marriage looks like. For my wife, she commented on the things she needs were the things I was doing, and wanted see me continue to do. I was asked what could W do to love me, like in the past? I then dropped what I think made my wife upset and think the rest of the night: that I don't know if she has ever showed me true love, and has ever met my emotional and physical needs. Having sex 15 times in 14 years (the first year we did have sex more often) meant we have had no emotional or physical connection for me. That to her, acts of service is her LL, and that list is ever growing. Keeping score to her is really important.

I want to be in a marriage - to my wife. I want to work on things. But my greatest fear, relayed to them, is that I will find myself with someone who can never forgive me, and cannot show any love or affection. That the affection she wants to share is only what sneaks out of her, and what she's willing to give, not what want. That all this work could be for naught.

She did not talk to me the rest of the night, on the drive home, or when she went to bed.

She's still upset today - posted a satirical comic on FB pointing to a husband's inadequacy vs. his wife's doing things for him for 15 years - husband thinks he's awesome for doing things for 2 months. It spoke right to us, and the timeframes we're on. I did call her up and ask her what she meant by posting that - and to her, it's just a big joke. That hurting my feelings wasn't considered, and that she was expressing herself, that her feelings mattered.

She did apologize and took down the post. But it's still indicative of a WW who doesn't understand what she's done.
I'm still to blame for her actions, that if '15 years of crap' weren't there, and I was willing to take what little love my wife has shown me, she wouldn't have cheated on me.

It really s*%ks that I continue to have an unremorseful WW who doesn't see the consequences for her actions. That I should be dancing every day that she's here, even if she's treating me poorly. It feels like every day could be torture, if she chooses to act unlovingly toward me, and to her, she has every right to.

Every day this goes on, I feel like I'm trapped. Trapped in a doomed marriage to a woman incapable of expressing the love I need and want. To a woman who really resents me with every fiber of her being, to the point she gets physically upset being around me and has to leave the room.

This is really tough. I need to detach after every interaction with her, as if I have to detox from the experience.

All she's looking for is happy conversations, as if I was a gay friend. To keep her company. That should be enough for me, right? It was enough for me for 15 years, so I shouldn't expect any more effort from her. Ugh.

Digging deep to keep myself together today.

[otw]

Wow. This is tough. I'm guessing if you can take some things and think on them. And maybe look at things differently like we are told in DR and things still don't work. Maybe she isn't ready.

I'm sorry. I have been so rooting for this one.

[G8r]

I feel for you Trumpet. Sometimes I think you're lucky to have a WW willing to try to R and then I read something else that you post and realize that your sitch is still not so different from mine. How do you get the WW to let go of the past hurt and look to the possibility of a bright future. It seems unfair that your WW won't let go of her pain but doesn't expect you to have, or more importantly show, your pain. I know my WW has been hurt aand her pain prevents her from opening up to me and I suspect that you know your W is in pain and is afraid to open up to you again for fear of the pain it may bring, but.... Do we really know the extent of the pain we caused them which primed them for an A? How does our pain compare to theirs? My WW talks about the years of pain that I had no idea that I put her through and I want to complain about a few months if pain.

I'm not trying to say one pain is greater than the other and maybe I'm projecting my own sitch onto yours. Idk. Just some thoughts that popped into my head when I read your latest post that I felt compelled to share.

I'm pulling for you and wish you the best. Vaya con dios.

[otw]

G8r
That is a great view. I know pain is pain. But the amount of years in my situation where she said I caused hurt to her makes me cringe

Don't get me wrong I am not taking all the blame as we both needed to find a way to communicate better but if she did really deal
With it for as long as she says. Man. I owe it to her to wait.

Just my opinion.

[Zues126]

She did not talk to me the rest of the night, on the drive home, or when she went to bed.

She's still upset today - posted a satirical comic on FB pointing to a husband's inadequacy vs. his wife's doing things for him for 15 years - husband thinks he's awesome for doing things for 2 months.

This is gross. This is blatantly disrespectful. I am glad you called her on it. I could see myself setting putting any thought of R on hold if she was going to act this way. Hey, if you need time to sort things out, take some time. But don't come around with crap like this. And don't take too long and expect me to still be here. Then letting go and moving forward.

Marriage is close to impossible enough without this warped mindset that you are the 15 year victim and have suffered and walked a journey your clueless spouse could never understand. Ick.

If I choose to want complete Reconciliation, I'm going to have to acknowledge to my W that what I did was just as bad as what she has done. That's really difficult for me - my heart was never with the computer, but to my W, my heart was never with her. Her heart is still with OM.

This is equally distasteful. You never connected with a party outside of your marriage. And you darn sure didn't walk away from your spouse over porn.

But whatever. There are times in marriage when you have to just shrug and go with the flow. In the big picture if she isn't cheating and you aren't watching porn then it doesn't really matter what the score was.

Hang in and keep no expectations.

[JGuy]

If I choose to want complete Reconciliation, I'm going to have to acknowledge to my W that what I did was just as bad as what she has done. That's really difficult for me - my heart was never with the computer, but to my W, my heart was never with her. Her heart is still with OM.

In these situations where there is disagreement, I have been learning recently about how helpful it is to remember the difference between agreement and validation. Your W probably doesn't need you to agree with her that what you did was just as bad as what she has done. I'm betting she just needs you to validate the fact that her upset feelings about this are very real for her. If she brings it up, respond by saying something to that extent, show that you care about the hurtful experience she went through when she learned about your addiction. You can do that without actually agreeing with her that it was just as bad as what she has done. Don't even mention anything about what she has done. Just respond by validating her and leave it at that. If you want her to validate you, don't even go there. Validate yourself. As long as she still has strong feelings about it, just keep validating her. When she continually sees that you really do understand and care about how she feels, and mean it, it may gradually make it easier for her to forgive you.

It really doesn't matter which sin is worse than the other, IMO. If the conversation gets into a comparison then I would just withdraw and avoid going there entirely.

[SciDad]

Trumpet-

Man, I feel for you! It seems to me that as you get closer to the possibility of starting a new marriage with your wife, the more tumultuous things become.

Is it because of your expectations? Resistance from your wife? Or just a new phase/dynamic in the relationship?

I ask these questions because I think that understanding the underlying cause of this tension may be important for moving forward. I see that your wife has put up walls to protect herself from feeling pain, but I don't know what you can do to help alleviate these fears without putting pressure on her.

I wish I had more constructive advice for you, but hang in there. You're on the right path and I'm pulling for you

[TxHubby]

Sorry that I need to ask but it's hard sometimes keeping up. Is your wife still wayward? You can work on the M if there are only two of you in the equation. Any more than that and there is no point in working on it.

[kyrie]

Session with pastor last night.
Wasn't counseling as it was him trying to catch up with us.
W reiterated that W doesn't love me, that she still has feelings for OM, but NC is in effect. W cannot forgive me for the porn and 'crap' I put her thru for 15 years. I have forgiven wife, but have a hard time with hurt and resentment. W feels that because I'm still hurt that I have not completely forgiven her.

He challenged me on my comments that I have forgiven my W. Since I have brought up the affair in the past week, have I truly forgiven her? I think he was right - I have to think thru what it truly looks like to forgive someone.

He was equally, if not more tough on my W. He pinpointed to her what I've told her (but shouldn't have): she has been forgiven, and she must learn to forgive me for my adultery (he and my wife agree that my pornography is just as bad as her adultery). How can she forgive herself? That she will need time to forgive, and that I need to give her the space to do that.

If I choose to want complete Reconciliation, I'm going to have to acknowledge to my W that what I did was just as bad as what she has done. That's really difficult for me - my heart was never with the computer, but to my W, my heart was never with her. Her heart is still with OM.

The session ended with each other getting asked what a loving, selfless marriage looks like. For my wife, she commented on the things she needs were the things I was doing, and wanted see me continue to do. I was asked what could W do to love me, like in the past? I then dropped what I think made my wife upset and think the rest of the night: that I don't know if she has ever showed me true love, and has ever met my emotional and physical needs. Having sex 15 times in 14 years (the first year we did have sex more often) meant we have had no emotional or physical connection for me. That to her, acts of service is her LL, and that list is ever growing. Keeping score to her is really important.

I want to be in a marriage - to my wife. I want to work on things. But my greatest fear, relayed to them, is that I will find myself with someone who can never forgive me, and cannot show any love or affection. That the affection she wants to share is only what sneaks out of her, and what she's willing to give, not what want. That all this work could be for naught.

She did not talk to me the rest of the night, on the drive home, or when she went to bed.

She's still upset today - posted a satirical comic on FB pointing to a husband's inadequacy vs. his wife's doing things for him for 15 years - husband thinks he's awesome for doing things for 2 months. It spoke right to us, and the timeframes we're on. I did call her up and ask her what she meant by posting that - and to her, it's just a big joke. That hurting my feelings wasn't considered, and that she was expressing herself, that her feelings mattered.

She did apologize and took down the post. But it's still indicative of a WW who doesn't understand what she's done.
I'm still to blame for her actions, that if '15 years of crap' weren't there, and I was willing to take what little love my wife has shown me, she wouldn't have cheated on me.

It really s*%ks that I continue to have an unremorseful WW who doesn't see the consequences for her actions. That I should be dancing every day that she's here, even if she's treating me poorly. It feels like every day could be torture, if she chooses to act unlovingly toward me, and to her, she has every right to.

Every day this goes on, I feel like I'm trapped. Trapped in a doomed marriage to a woman incapable of expressing the love I need and want. To a woman who really resents me with every fiber of her being, to the point she gets physically upset being around me and has to leave the room.

This is really tough. I need to detach after every interaction with her, as if I have to detox from the experience.

All she's looking for is happy conversations, as if I was a gay friend. To keep her company. That should be enough for me, right? It was enough for me for 15 years, so I shouldn't expect any more effort from her. Ugh.

Digging deep to keep myself together today.

Sounds like some terrible feelings, that we're pretty familiar with. As a W, I've said/done similar things in a 'passive aggressive' attempt at showing my H how I feel. Stupid, ineffective & disrespectful - not even thinking about how it would come across or feel. I can say it's not intentional. But it still hurts. And so does she. She's stuck in a prison of resentment. As a Christian, once I saw that, it opened up a huge (slow) cascade of understanding and the ability to see my own actions. Over and over we're encouraged and even commanded to cast off bitterness and resentments.
It was a book, "Fierce Women" by Kimberly Wagner and of course the EA insanity that helped me realize it. The book laid it all out in clear terms the how & why. It's one thing to nod our heads in agreement with a concept or principle. It's another to finally see the plank in our own eye. I hope she can someday see it. That book did it for me.

[kyrie]

And for the other side of the coin, RE: porn, I think you know better. Yes, PA is awful and the worst. There's reason why Jesus Christ says that a man even looking at woman that way is the same. Don't dismiss her feelings. They are real and there is real damage.
Sorry to be blunt and harsh. I know you've come so far. She has far to come too. Don't dismiss her...be firm. Just as you have encouraged me. :-)