Here again after 9 years and struggling 3

[Rouky]

IP, I wish I was just round the corner and I'd give you a huge hug :-). I know perfectly how you feel as I also found it hard to let go. Like I was scared to be alone, a single mum, early forties and thinking who would want someone like me.

Take a piece of paper and write down all the things you do like about your Alien H, not who he used to be but who he is right now. Step back, would you go out with someone like this? My guess would be no. I'm not saying to hate him but each time you feel low look at that list and you will see that for the time being you don't want that person.

Hang in there, the light it's on its way :-)

[Zues126]

I didn't see it as trying to control him, I saw it as trying to make something happen to alter this situation I find myself in. I can't cope with it the way it is. I'm still hurting just as much as day one and I have friends and family telling me to D him and I just feel like I'm running out of time. The longer we are separated the harder things would be if he did want to R. I guess I was trying to hurry things along. It has been 84 days today since he left. I don't feel any different. In fact, I think I feel more devastated now than I did on day 1.

Again, I'm sorry you're here. It is pretty awful.

Your friends and family are telling you to D him to end the pain because they hate to see you suffering.

We on DB are telling you to let him go because we, too, hate to see you suffering.

All of us agree on one thing- continuing to desire something you can't control and can't have is causing you pain. We all agree that you should work on letting go, little by little (this is NOT an instant decision, it's a process that takes a long time).

The only difference is that we believe that the internal letting go can be done without external actions like legal paperwork or other bridge burning activity.

OK, I understand what you have put here, thank you. I feel like I get 'told off' here though if I vent. It seems like I have to be all happy GAL even on here, if not more so than in real life.

When I was a manager I told my employees it was ok to vent, but not to be negative. When they asked me the difference I defined it like this:

Venting is when external stresses exceed your coping mechanisms and you find yourself boiling over in the red zone, so you do two things...first you blow off some steam to a friend, but then you look in the mirror and ask yourself what you could do differently to either prevent the situation or handle it better in the future. In this case venting is a useful technique to get out of the red zone so you can get back in control, and it is centered around accountability.

Negativity starts the same, boiling over in the red zone and blowing off steam to a friend...but then it ends with the person pointing to the world as being the problem, and concluding they can't possibly be ok given that the world is the way it is.

Venting leads to regaining control, accepting reality, and growing. Negativity leads to cheeseless tunnels.

We're here to help make sure the blowing off steam leads to something productive so you can feel better.

OK, I kind of see what you mean here but how do I put this into practice? I'm acting happy when he comes round. I don't talk to him unless he starts a conversation (except the finance conversation we had on Friday). Yet he is chatty and starts conversations and seems to think I'm OK with it. I'm not. It is killing me. Does this mean I should go out every time he comes?

I think avoiding R talks and avoiding sharing your feelings is a good first step. I also think boundaries are appropriate. If you've been light and breezy when he is around, ending conversations first, keeping things brief, and having firm boundaries so you don't feel used, then I think you're doing it right.

It's not easy. Just remember this isn't forever. This is very short term.

I, too, am mixed about setting the schedule. To me that is a step towards formal divorce, as is child support, etc. Now, if nothing EVER changed then yes, at some point you'd have to do both of those things, and probably file at some point too. But is now really the time? I hesitate to say moving forward with any of that is right when you're still in such emotional turmoil. You're making decisions that will impact your family for life, you deserve to be at your best.

Personally I would recommend a DB coach for that. I consulted mine before taking ANY action of this nature. Not only did it keep things calm, I'll always be able to sleep at night knowing I did things within the advice of my IC, DB coach, and L. I wouldn't trust this with you alone, or your family, or even us on the board. I don't think you'll ever regret spending a little money to do this.

I feel that I get the emotional needs you speak of met at work and from my family. It is the actual emotional need of being in love, feeling safe and looked after, being held, that I am not getting met. I cannot get those things anywhere else than my H. This is where I'm struggling. When I'm doing my GAL activities, which mostly involve my children, I am genuinely happy doing them. There is just this huge void where his love used to be.

This is important. I wrote a bit about being appreciative unconditionally. Have you ever been single in your life? If so, did you walk around like you had a hole in your heart? Do you think everyone does? Or were you ok being single because you thought you just had to manage through until a white knight came along, then you had the expectation that he'd take care of you so you didn't hurt anymore, and you can't comprehend having to be your own knight? I'm not making fun of you at all, I promise.

I'm talking about two different things. Obviously there is going to be a huge loss that is an open wound right now. This is devastating. I'm not suggesting it shouldn't be.

But is there something inherently painful about being on your own? Should life hurt if you don't have someone perpetually putting their arms around you and telling you it will be ok?

I will tell you that it did for me, and I felt the same when XW left. I was FORCED to figure this one out, because I learned the hard way as well I couldn't control anyone but me. What I learned was that I could be there for myself in a way that I never was during my M. If I needed a hug, I hugged myself. I gave myself the love I wanted from XW. It sounds stupid, but this was also a huge 180 for me. Not only did it help me survive my D, it gave me the best chance of being a good H whether XW had a change of heart or someday down the road, because you can't be a great partner if you need your spouse to care-take you. It just doesn't work. They get resentful of having to care take, and it's never enough to fill the hole in your heart, and you need more, so you start trying to pressure them for more and more, until they pull away, etc. At least in my experience. Only by learning to truly take care of yourself can you do the 180 of being able to be a partner and not an emotional dependent.

I think you should spend more time talking about this. It is important. I used to feel like being ok on my own somehow diminished my love for my partner or meant I was ok with divorce. It didn't and it doesn't. It simply means that I understand that only God can fill up the hole in my heart, and only if I ask Him too. Or if I'm not feeling spiritual, only I can do it if I take responsibility for my happiness and focus on what I have to be appreciative of and be there for myself.

It's still hard for me. I am still angry that the world works the way it does. I still struggle accepting reality. Some days I read newcomer's situations and I get angry all over again, it seems so unfair and hurtful what is done. But in the end it is my choice whether I want to enjoy the life I've been given or stew in my own anger. This wasn't an overnight thing either IP, it's been a lot of hard work to get through.

I don't want him to do things the way I need him to if he came back. It's just that I don't see how I can step up and be the best wife I can if he doesn't come back. Without him I'm not a wife, I'm a Mum, a single Mum.

I mentioned some of this above. Your role as wife is part of you. Work on the whole person. If you can deal with this loss and come out the other side you'll be a stronger woman. This means you'll do better in any role you take on, and it will be obvious.

I will do as you say and post about the M breakdown in a separate thread so it stands out. Thanks Zues.

Thanks IP. If it helps know that I'd take some of the weight off your back if I could.

[inpain]

You haven't said much about your past behavior or contributions in the breakdown of the M so I have no clue.

OK, so here goes, a breakdown of our M.

We'd already been together 4 years when we married, and lived together for 3 of those 4 years. We bought our first home together the same month we married (he moved in with me originally). Our S was born 4 years later after some troubles - (2 operations and a failed IVF cycle). During the pregnancy I became ill with OCD and then had PND too. H was supportive at first, then when S was 4 months old he said he wasn't sure he wanted to be with me anymore. I just carried on looking after S and a few weeks later he said he was sorry and had just been struggling with my illness. I thought things ticked along fine after this. Then, 2 days after S's 2nd birthday H came home from work late and told me he'd stayed at work to think and he was leaving me. He left the very next morning. I cried, begged, all the usual for 2 weeks, then discovered there was OW, a W he worked with. Bought DR and immediately went dark. 2 weeks later H asked me and S out for the day. He continued to do this every week or couple of weeks. Four months later he asked me out on a date. The next day he said he wanted to come home. The whole time he had insisted the OW was just someone to talk to. I believed him and after 3 months piecing things really started to look up. We were happier than ever. 8 months later I'm pregnant with D. 2 weeks after finding out I was pregnant I found a letter in H's wallet from the OW. The wording made it clear it had been PA. H denied it all and said she was crazy and had made it up to split us up. The letter was dated 2 months after he'd come back home. I was devastated but, as I say, pregnant. I struggled throughout the pregnancy with whether or not to believe what H was saying to me. I was so confused and almost ended the M myself at 8 months pregnant but H begged me not to make a decision whilst hormonal. I agreed and when D was born I was so blissfully happy that it all seemed unimportant. Things were pretty good except every time H was on his phone I felt uneasy. Most of the time I hid it but sometimes I'd ask if he was talking to her. He always said no.

When D was 3 I discovered a birthday card and Christmas card from OW when I was tidying our wardrobes out. They were with some envelopes that some of my Christmas gifts had been delivered in, stashed at the back of the wardrobe, so I knew they were from the Christmas just gone. I asked H if he had something he wanted to tell me. He blagged his way out of it saying he'd meant to put them in the bin and had didn't know when they were from. I pointed out the post marks and he changed it to he'd just forgotten they were there and they meant nothing. Two weeks later while H was at work I found several emails to OW - H sending pictures to her of love messages or photos of our S dressed in a dressing up outfit! This led me to hunt a little further and I found the most sickening thing of my whole life. A letter on the laptop written by H to OW, 3 pages long. It implied they'd been having a PA for years. When H got home he asked why I was crying. I handed him the laptop and told him I was spending the night at my parents' house. He looked like he would collapse as I walked out the door. I returned the next day to say I wasn't sure what I wanted to do but that I wanted us to still go on the holiday we had booked for 2 weeks later. We did and he spent the whole holiday trying to make me 'come round', sending cards, telling me the letter was made up when he was drunk one night. He bought me jewellery too to try to make it up to me, which I gave him back. I insisted we see a MC. We went twice together and then she wanted to see H alone. From that point on it was just me going on my own for weeks on end, talking about my childhood. I eventually asked when we were going to get to the actual reason I was here - ie H's letter and insisted she read it. She told me if her H had written it she would have filed for D on the spot. I didn't go again and just after that D was diagnosed with an incurable condition so once again my mind was taken up with something else.

H changed his phone no at my request when it first happened but didn't like me looking at his phone. We argued a lot about this at first because I felt he should be transparent given what had gone on. He felt it was an invasion of his privacy. The first year was bad. I cried and was angry a lot. Lots of little comments about H being a liar. H's idea of working on things seemed to be to just be as nice as possible to me and wait on my hand and foot. I told him that wasn't what I needed. Told him I needed some kind of proof that he hadn't had PA because his letter and her letter made it obvious they had. At the very least I wanted him to be tested for STDs but he refused, saying he didn't need to because he hadn't had a PA. After about a year of this he began to get angry with it all and if I was ever upset he would just yell at me to make my mind up, either to stay or go. I had felt things were getting slowly better as I was going longer and longer between the times I needed to bring it up for reassurance. Wasn't good enough for H though, he wanted it never mentioning again. When he tried to hug me I would just stand there motionless. In the beginning it was because it made me want to actually be sick when he so much as put a hand on my shoulder. All I could think of was him with her and the words in their letters. I felt H didn't really do anything to make me feel better except being nice, and that wasn't what I needed. I read books about forgiveness and getting over affairs, looked at sites. Tried to get H involved in that but he wasn't interested, said it was a load of rubbish and we just needed to be nice to each other.

All the while, as well as this OW issue there has been the issue of how H is with S. It is not just me who thinks he isn't nice to him, my whole family do and friends that see how he is. I have bought books on this under the guise that "we" needed help parenting. He only read the first chapters. He would visibly try to be different on several occasions over the years but it would last a day or two then he'd be back to himself. He is over bearing and unrealistic with S. He doesn't treat him with respect - doesn't think children should be treat with respect. He just seems to have no clue whatsoever on how to be a dad. It has broken my heart to watch how he is with S. We went through so much to have him and I feel so betrayed, like H hid his true self. I have thought many times that if I'd known what sort of father H was going to be I wouldn't have had children with him. So, I have, in my H's words, gone on and on at him about this. I tried all manner of ways to get him to be softer and more involved, to no avail.

The last couple of years as S's hormones have started to kick in things have become increasingly strained. It has become more and more obvious to everyone (including S) that H treats S and D differently. She can do no wrong and S does everything wrong. This has been the main thing we have argued about. H's shifts are dreadful and he has become increasingly snappy and moody and almost impossible to live with when on night shifts. Everyone treads on eggshells.

I hadn't worked since having the children but got a job 2 years ago. I feel this sent our M spiralling too. Prior to me working we would go out for lunch or into town shopping when H had a day off in the week, while the children were at school. It was the only time we spent alone together. No-one will have children over night due to D's condition so we hardly ever went out. H now says that this is because he hasn't wanted to go out with me, because he doesn't like me and hasn't wanted to be with me for a long time. Me working has made me very stressed out. I am working full time, having the children on my own evenings and weekends a lot of the time due to H's shifts and trying to run the house too. I became snappy and irritable.

H did help with housework at first when I started working but then the help waned. His Mum died this time last year and from then on I think he has been depressed. He doesn't believe in depression though, thinks it's a load of rubbish and people should just pull themselves together. He hasn't slept properly since she died, stopped doing anything to help round the house and has pretty much worked, slept or sat in his chair looking at things on the internet. Several times I voiced that I was concerned and worried about him and that he seemed depressed. He said I was talking rubbish. Things seemed to improve in August when we went on holiday. We had a fabulous time and became much closer physically than we had been in a very long time. I was elated - I finally thought things were getting back on track. As soon as we got home, however and he started back on shift he became snappy again and so did I. About a month after the holiday he told me ILYBNILWY. In view of the holiday I was shocked rigid and very confused. He said he wanted to see if we could get on so he could decide whether to leave or not. A week later he had to go on a course for 4 weeks. I have never seen anyone so tired and drained at the end of each day as my H was on this course. I did all the wrong things in this time. I was like a rabbit in the headlights, panicking and asking for reassurances that H was going to stay. He said he couldn't promise anything and just wanted to see how we got on. We had a couple of lovely weekends during this time where we went out as a family and had a great time. H was hugging and kissing like nothing was wrong right up to the weekend before he left.

We had a huge row the weekend he left. I had wanted reassurance and when he refused I told him if he didn't love me I wanted him to leave. So he did. The next day he came back to tell the children he was leaving. He told me that I thought I was so clever telling him to leave and I'd got what I deserved. A couple of weeks after he left I came back on here so the rest is on here.

So, I've struggled to forgive H's EA/PA and have punished H for the hurt he caused. I've criticized him because of his parenting. This is a tough one though because everyone who really knows us agrees that there is no way I could just let his parenting style go unchecked. I'm not sure what I could have done differently there. I've tried to model a better parenting style. I've tried books, and then when they haven't worked I've just said it. I've tried heartfelt letters telling him how upset it makes me to see him parent the way he does. I haven't been pleasant to live with, I can see that. I needed something, some reassurance. I don't even know. It has all just been such a mess for so long.

[Irish M]

Hi Inpain (((((HUGS)))))

After reading your story on your relationship, I'm going to refrain from judging your H. All I will say is that he has to grow up and be a man to his W and a better father to his children.

I just want to tell you that you did nothing wrong and you tried every thing you possibly could and more.
You are an amazing woman and mother that so many men would love to have you as a life partner. You have been put through a lot. A lot more than many.

Hopefully your H will come out of this a more mature person. He has a long way to go.

Your criticizing his parental skills and not forgiving his PA's is normal. He did not do his job is reassuring you enough for you to trust him. Your gut feeling always made you feel like he was hiding something. You caught him on several occasions so your gut was right.You need to trust it. And he did not improve his parenting. Don't beat yourself up for his faults.

I also swept the PA affair under the rug 10 years ago. We never dealt with it and it was a thorn in my side. I never truly trusted my W. It made me jealous because i was insecure. Is that my fault. No. W did this .. she needed to rebuild that trust and prove it wouldn't happen again. My gut this time said red flag .. red flag.. guess what. OM and PA big time.

Do I blame myself. no . Do i regret confronting her and it eventually made her run. No.

its all on them, we are not to blame.

You have to not blame yourself for your H. It's all him.
You couldn't of done anything to help him. He didn't want to be helped or improve.

I hope you reread what you just wrote because you blame yourself a lot when you should be looking at H and asking yourself what has H done to fix his issues.

take care
Irish

[Rouky]

Hi Inpain, just checking how you are today.

[inpain]

Hi Rouky, thank you so much for checking on me! I don't know what went on yesterday with posting but yours and Zues' posts weren't there when I typed mine but now they are!?!?! I love your idea of writing down what I actually like about alien H. I just tried to do that and actually could only think of one thing I like about him right now . That's pretty tough to realise!

You also wrote exactly how I feel too. I'm so scared about being a single Mum in my early forties. I feel like this is it for me 'love' wise. I feel like I will be alone now (romantically) for the rest of my life. It makes me so sad. That's the thing about someone D you. It's not just the now, it's the future that was fantasised about in your head. The imaginations of looking after grandchildren, our children's wedding days, holidays and cruises together once the children have left home. It is all gone.

[inpain]

Hi Zues, thanks again for another wonderful post, they are always so helpful, I really appreciate it!

I think avoiding R talks and avoiding sharing your feelings is a good first step. I also think boundaries are appropriate. If you've been light and breezy when he is around, ending conversations first, keeping things brief, and having firm boundaries so you don't feel used, then I think you're doing it right.

Thanks Zues, it is good to have my actions 'checked out' by someone else and I'm relieved you think I'm doing the right thing. It is so difficult to decide what to do.

I, too, am mixed about setting the schedule. To me that is a step towards formal divorce, as is child support, etc. Now, if nothing EVER changed then yes, at some point you'd have to do both of those things, and probably file at some point too. But is now really the time? I hesitate to say moving forward with any of that is right when you're still in such emotional turmoil. You're making decisions that will impact your family for life, you deserve to be at your best.

I think you're right here, as painful as it is for me to have him just calling whenever he likes, at least it is a 'stand off' position and not heading to D like fixed arrangements would be. Another win win is that I know he isn't anywhere else with someone else (every cloud and all that!).

Personally I would recommend a DB coach for that. I consulted mine before taking ANY action of this nature. Not only did it keep things calm, I'll always be able to sleep at night knowing I did things within the advice of my IC, DB coach, and L. I wouldn't trust this with you alone, or your family, or even us on the board. I don't think you'll ever regret spending a little money to do this.

I'd really love to be able to get the advice of a DB coach but I really don't think I could afford it because on top of the cost of the coaching I would have international fees to pay. Wish it wasn't the case as I'm sure it would really help me. I'm so lost when it comes to all this!

This is important. I wrote a bit about being appreciative unconditionally. Have you ever been single in your life? If so, did you walk around like you had a hole in your heart? Do you think everyone does? Or were you ok being single because you thought you just had to manage through until a white knight came along, then you had the expectation that he'd take care of you so you didn't hurt anymore, and you can't comprehend having to be your own knight? I'm not making fun of you at all, I promise.

I have been single yes, and I hated it. I don't know why. I have asked myself this many times. I feel very alone when I'm on my own, I know that much, but I don't know why.

Thanks IP. If it helps know that I'd take some of the weight off your back if I could.

Thanks so much Zues, it does help to know there are such caring people on here who not only know how I feel but care too.

[inpain]

Hi Inpain (((((HUGS)))))

After reading your story on your relationship, I'm going to refrain from judging your H. All I will say is that he has to grow up and be a man to his W and a better father to his children.

I just want to tell you that you did nothing wrong and you tried every thing you possibly could and more.
You are an amazing woman and mother that so many men would love to have you as a life partner. You have been put through a lot. A lot more than many.

Hopefully your H will come out of this a more mature person. He has a long way to go.

Hi Irish, thank you so much for your post. I can't tell you what it means to read this ^^. My H has manipulated me for so long that I actually believe him when he tells me it is all my fault for not getting over his EA/PA. Then I hear other people's opinions and I think maybe I'm not crazy after all!

You have to not blame yourself for your H. It's all him.
You couldn't of done anything to help him. He didn't want to be helped or improve.

I think I need to read this every day to remind myself. Nobody has ever put it like that before but it is so right. He didn't want to be helped or improve. Still doesn't.

I hope you reread what you just wrote because you blame yourself a lot when you should be looking at H and asking yourself what has H done to fix his issues.

When I reread it it actually left me wondering why on earth I have put up with all of this!? The worrying/sad thing is that H is adamant he did everything he could to fix his mistakes. He didn't even do half the things I know I would have done if it had been me that cheated. I'd have been moving heaven and earth every day until I'd earned back the trust I'd broken, forever. I do wonder why he wasn't/isn't as dedicated.

[Zues126]

Thanks for your post on my thread. Its 11 pages and I don't have time to start a new thread, so I'll say thanks here.

Yes, OM being part of the new family isn't thrilling...but I've had 18 months to get to this point, and OM#1-5 got me used to the idea. Better than having S11 tell me about the stranger that sleeps over in mom's room.

Honestly I'm at the point where I'm really not threatened in any way. I'm the kids dad, nothing will change that. I know who I am as a person, and I'm not replaceable. I HOPE that OM turns out to be a rockstar and he and XW have a great life, and that he is a positive influence on my children. I'm not hoping XW comes back to me and it would be nice if things worked out for her. I'm skeptical, because if she gave up on the father of her kids and her husband, I don't know how she'll navigate through bigger challenges with someone else down the road, but maybe she'll grow by then, and in any case if relationships these days are nothing more than 5-10 year stretches of shared time then I hope she gets what she wants from it.

As for you...I haven't had a chance to digest all of this yet. One thing I hope is that you've been reading Rain's last thread. It is epic and something that has been on my mind since you mentioned lack of success stories. Rain can't force WAH to not be a cheating scumbag, but if you look at how she handled herself compared to what she's gone through over the past few years she looks like a success to me. Please check it out and I'll catch up soon.

[Rain75]

I hope is that you've been reading Rain's last thread. It is epic. Rain can't force WAH to not be a cheating scumbag, but if you look at how she handled herself compared to what she's gone through over the past few years she looks like a success to me. Please check it out and I'll catch up soon.

Zues..with you saying its epic and Azzork calling it a saga, me thinks a book is in order of my "epic saga"

Seriously though, thanks. Everyone seems to think I handled it well. I'm not so sure though.

Inpain, ugh. First I am so sorry for what you are going through. I can hear and feel your fear at losing your H and M when you write. I feel like that too.

There are so many similarities between your M, Anna's M and my R. We sure do know how to punish these men don't we? LOL I myself am quite the expert. I can be vicious with my words to him, and I have been. I'm not proud of it and it's cost me a lot as you've read.

I think the advice you've gotten is spot on and really may be your best shot. Irish gave you a few real life examples of couples that have gone through what we are going through.

There are many. If you want success stories from the board to see what other DBers did there are a few. Mozza has them on his thread. In case you haven't seen that thread I'll post it for you.

I haven't read them all but TO324s thread may be a good place to start since her situation is somewhat similar. An A with 18 y.o. ow, 2 small children, H moved out, her father was very involved (lived with her).

Mozzas thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2646684&page=1

I wish I could do more than tell you that I know the pain and the confusion and the fear. Damn that fear!

((((Inpain)))))

We can do this girl. We have to get some GAL activites and some 180s in place to help us DETACH!

Easy peasy lemon squeezy