WW, My Addiction, Patience, and HOPE Part II

[trumpet]

Wife didn't really want to talk to me when I got home last night, but did say 'hi' from the couch.

Crock pot dinner - soup. It was great. I had a bowl and then cleaned up supper. I was the last to eat. She had unplugged the crock pot, so I could have said something that my supper was cold, but I didn't.

Ate, cleaned up, and then was headed downstairs. She came down to talk with me, but I really wasn't in the mood. She asked me when i was going to sign the hold on the divorce. I told her 'I don't know'.

I cried after she left. I'm just really sad right now. Not sad that she left me alone - I wanted to be alone, just hurt by her and her words when I thought we were trying to piece things together.

It's too early to piece.

I also discovered from FB messages to a couple of her girlfriends that she doesn't think this is going to work. THEN WHY PUT A STAY IN THE DIVORCE? It's really frustrating when she tells me she wants to make it work, and then tells others it isn't. It makes trusting her even harder. And it makes it tough when she does give a little effort and tries to talk with me - is this just her giving a half-hearted attempt to show that she is, but really she's just waiting out the 90 days and will start the D up again?

I've asked her repeatedly to show effort, but she has no clue how to - she is just so hurt, since she had to give up the OM.

I'm not looking forward to meeting up with our pastor on Monday night - I'm feeling very deflated, and I won't be able to really do any work at R the M if she's still in a place where she hates my guts, and still loves OM.

Georgia - yes, our marriage has been tough. We both had needs that went completely unmet. I'm high sex drive, and having sex once in 3 years, and about a half dozen times in the last 10 is something that made me feel very unloved. I also was scared of how mean my wife could be - how every night I came home, there was going to be yet another thing I didn't do, some project around the house that still wasn't done, and I would be reminded of it. The words 'If you really loved me you would do x,y,z' would daily come out of her mouth, telling me that her love was only available if all her conditions were met.

I don't want that love anymore. I'm done trying to 'win' love by completing a never-ending task list. At least one of those tasks was to mind-read and figure out what my wife needed without asking her. If I dared to ask, it was 'I don't know - you figure it out'.

I'm so done trying to mind-read. I'm exhausted. And NOT signing the stay order is on my mind right now.

I believe that we should stay married. I believe divorce is really, really bad. But I just can't stay with a partner who has so many insecurities that they have to make love conditional, that the words 'make love' aren't dirty words. That hugging and kissing are something that's ok to do, and not held over my head like a sledgehammer.

I'm so done with this right now.

[trumpet]

Had an ok weekend.

Wife did converse with me. She got sick on Sunday, so I did a few things for her. She was appreciative.

Took the kids to a women's BB game. It was great.

Trying my best to show Christ's love in my words and actions.

What I've been able to piece together is this:

1.) My wife has not forgiven me for '15 years of crap', including the porn. She can't love or even like me until she's gotten through this
2.) NC is still in force. She has done a good job with this.
3.) MR can't happen until forgiveness happens. I think as OM love fades, the forgiveness will begin to happen
4.) We have signed the stay order. We have 3 months before we need to tell the court to re-start the D, or dissolve the D.
5.) Wife is going to counseling. We're seeing pastor tonight, which I'm actually nervous about.
6) Wife, while staying in the M due to her commitment, repeatedly has told me that she has needs to 'find happiness'. This would seem to override any Christian principal that she might have heard the last 30+ years. For her, personal happiness supercedes the marriage and the vows we have taken 15 years ago.
7) To wife, forgiveness would mean not talking about the affair. If I truly forgave, it wouldn't come up again - that the hurt wouldn't exist anymore.
8.) My pornography use, and her 2 affairs are equal in her mind - I have done just as much to destroy the M as she has. Her justification for the PA and EA is my 'being a crappy husband' for 15 years.

These last three points would not be my viewpoint, of course.


It's now a matter of time - time for me to work through my hurt, and continue to show the new Trumpet. Time for my W to see the possibility of a happier M vs. what we had. Time for OM to fade.

Once my wife can forgive me, we can move forward with MR and couples counseling. If she thinks all the hurt needs to be gone before she forgives, we won't make it - way too much hurt on both sides.

I'm happy she's giving us a chance. I'm happy she's getting help. I'm happy she can converse with me on a 'friend' basis, and that the kids see two people trying to make it work. She has said she wants to love me, but can't right now.

On other fronts, got a promotion at work - management, here I come! This wouldn't have happened with the old Trumpet - I was scared of putting myself out there. I'm more confident in my own abilities than I have been in years. I'm ok, and even welcome change. I will not compromise my beliefs, but if my cheese gets moved, I move. Being content doesn't mean I have to settle for where I'm at - let's see where my abilities take me.

[ARose]

Trumpet, congratulations on the promotion! I love how you recognize how your own confidence has brought on positive change.

I can hear the pain in your words, but also the hope and the determination. I think you are a very strong man, and I admire your perseverance and commitment. I am watching your sitch very carefully as well for clues on how to handle this when/if I am ever in your position. Thank you sharing and please keep posting.

[trumpet]

Fo.2, following you as well!

My journaling is sometimes the highlight of my day. It's a bit of blabbing, but of all the advice I hear, I do keep a lot of what I've received on this board in high regard - Sandi Georgia Bulldog have been rockstars for me.

We are all capable of very bad things, as well as wonderful, beautiful things. Forgiveness lets you drop the bags you carry around for someone else, and to put your energy into the wonderful that is capable. How to find your 'wonderful'? It comes from within. It comes from having a steadfast belief structure. If my current W has decided someone else will make her happy, I need the courage to let her go. Love is letting go, not hanging on.

That is my struggle. Every day.

Remember, if you're struggling, it's a great thing - it means you're fighting against gravity. If I give in, I would conform to whatever and whoever I'm around.

Who do I WANT to be? Where do I WANT to go?
The whisper that was within me now is a talking voice. Maybe someday it will roar at me. That would be nice.

[sandi2]

6) Wife, while staying in the M due to her commitment, repeatedly has told me that she has needs to 'find happiness'. This would seem to override any Christian principal that she might have heard the last 30+ years. For her, personal happiness supercedes the marriage and the vows we have taken 15 years ago.

Part of that wayward mindset is her pursuit of happiness. She may connect happiness to the OM. For me, I was very depressed during my withdrawals, b/c I saw my OM as being my last chance at happiness. As a WW, she has related unhappiness to you. Where I was extremely resentful toward my H for other things our MR, your W resents you for the porn. That could take spiritual guidance and time, before she can let go and forgive.

The waywardness that causes her mindset may not disappear all at once. I know mine didn't, although much like your W, I had made the decision to stay in my M. I wasn't happy about it. I had no desire to make an effort and honestly was so depressed, I had no energy for it. That may not be true for all WW's. I was no young chick and had health issues, so the added depression really kicked me.

The struggles for your W will not die out just b/c she has made the decision to stay. The fact that she has honored the NC (as far as you know) is quite an accomplishment. She may not be able to deliver everything at once, b/c she might be doing all she can do at the moment. Giving up the OM is very much effort on her part, as I'm sure you can understand. I think you need to ease up (at least till she gets the hardest part of withdrawals behind) saying something about the work she needs to do. I do not mean that you should let her start showing disrespect, etc. I just mean don't be constantly reminding her what she has to do, especially now that she's going to counseling. Btw, I hope it's not one of those C who encourage women to leave and go find their happiness.

It still concerns me that she rebels about the transparency.

To wife, forgiveness would mean not talking about the affair. If I truly forgave, it wouldn't come up again - that the hurt wouldn't exist anymore.

Sure, sweeping it under the rug is easier than cleaning the whole house. Does she feel the same way about your porn use?

[Georgia Bulldogs]

I like how your wife has to "get through this" with regards to forgiving you for 15 years of crap but you are just supposed to forgive once and for all time and not bring it up again. I use "again" there loosely because she just stopped "it" last week so you haven't even gone through "it" once yet.

That being said....bringing it up over and over just doesn't accomplish much. I usually recommend, once withdrawal is over, a big honesty session where ALL the truth can be put on the table. Honest is just so important to the foundation of marriage that getting it all out there on both sides is important. Trickle truth and discovering new facts a year later (like if she slept with OM or made out with some guy at her company Christmas party 3 years ago) is just so devastating to a recovery vomitting all the truth up front and building from there is important.

It's also one of the advantages of snooping (for verification purposes). When a betrayed husband has snooped out most of the truth of the situation he doesn't have to ask as many questions because he already knows the answers. He doesn't need to talk about it because there just aren't that many grey issues he's not up to date on.

What's funny is - SHE will bring it up and want to talk about it. When you present a safe, calm and neutral listening environment....the wayward is so foggy and confused that she'll end up wanting to talk about it with someone and since you are around a bunch - she'll just talk herself to death about it to you. You'll be the one trying to change course and talk about something else or do something else.

You also can't just be expected to bury your head in the sand and act like nothing every happened. It's a fine line between forgiveness, healthy processing, boundaries and the tendency to conflict avoid. You are in conflict with your wife right now negotiating the terms of your future relationship - you can't just roll over out of fear of making her angry. Fight for BOTH of you becoming better spouses, better parents and better people.


Finally - just like her forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting. Although you have no plans to hammer her on this issue and you've never called her names ....this isn't something that doesn't need to ever be discussed again. You might be able to use the old nails in the fence analogy. You can pound a bunch of nails in your back wooden fence, but when you remove the nails --- the holes remain. The damage doesn't disappear. Even if you fill the holes and repaint - the underlying damage remains.


I empathize with your post this weekend. Whether to just bag it and take the opportunity to just seek another life divorcing this woman who really wasn't that great a wife to begin with. Having such thoughts is normal and I used thought thoughts to give me the strength to FIGHT for what WE wanted and not roll over for the easy wayward recovery way (burying your heads in the sand until it happens again). You see - YOU are going to be fine whichever way this goes. Your wife and kids will pay the biggest price should you two divorce. So this isn't about you battling for your happiness because you might just be happier getting divorced. It's certainly a possibility if your wife doesn't step up to become a better wife. Therefore, you can fight this fight without fear. You're going to be ok either way. Forgiveness doesn't require reconciliation. God has given you an out of adultery. He doesn't require you to reconcile in such situations even though we are asked to forgive.


Got to go. Have a nice week.

[trumpet]

Sandi,

Thank you. She knows the porn is no longer a part of me, but I've told her I could always fall, and it would be something I need to tell her when it happens. It hasn't so far, and she knows that. She sees the effort. She hasn't needed to check up on me, which is a little strange, but also, if she doesn't feel anything for me, who cares? Once she feels love for me, the accountability factor will rise.

Funny you speak about that. If she wants to rug sweep the PA/EA we can rug sweep the porn addiction, and never mention it again, right? If I'm supposed to never hurt from the PA/EA, she shouldn't hurt from the porn addiction?

Her brain still doesn't fire the neurons in the correct order sometimes. Still trying to justify what she did. I justified what I did for 15 freaking years. I need to continue to give her time.

By the way, the conversations we have about the R are started by her now. I typically steer that barge away from the bridge. No need to sink the cargo!

[Mowgli]

So if it comes up that way tonight, I guess you'll know what to say

[trumpet]

Georgia,

Thanks for the insightful posts - very much appreciated.

I've got lots to learn on being a great husband.
My father worked in a gravel pit for 25 years, working heavy machinery. Came home dirty every day. Was honest, hard working, but not much of dad who did things with his kids. He did his own thing when he got home, like his father. My mom did almost everything, sans putting wood in the stove, maintaining the house and vehicles.

My FIL did EVERYTHING for his family. The hidden expectation from my W that I do everything - cooking, cleaning, child-rearing, house, working 2 jobs, etc came from a father who is a saint. MIL stayed home with the kids when they were little, but doesn't do dishes, doesn't really cook, but can sure spend the money. The house pukes with chickens and baskets. She's had gastric bypass in her 20's, and put it all back on again. Has had a cane for as long as I know her, and she's only 65 now. Lots of health issues.

So, I can see what a great father looks like, almost to a fault. That's the expectation from my wife - to live up to her father. She has had nothing but contempt for my father - he's crude, worked in a dusty gravel pit, doesn't carry highly intelligent conversations on, is way overweight, etc. She feels like I was turning into my father, and not her father.

Hidden expectations. There are killers of a marriage.

I'm still willing to stick it out - for the kids, and for the hope that I could find happiness with a wife who might not ever forgive me. The forgiveness piece has never been a strong suit for her. We'll see if she can truly change.

I'll continue to work on my weak points:
1.) Being on time
2.) When to listen, and when to fix things
3.) Weight
4.) Letting stress not bleed into the life of my family

[trumpet]

I just used There, instead of they're.

I would pay someone on this board for the edit button to come back.