WW, My Addiction, Patience, and HOPE Part II

[Georgia Bulldogs]

I could hardly stay under the same roof, much less court him! He didn't really know how to encourage me, I suppose. He never asked what he could do to help me. I think he wanted to but just didn't know how. He had no idea about the mindset of a WW, and just expected me to immediately bounce back to my old self (the one who had always been the worker in the MR). He did do small acts of service, b/c that is his LL........but not really mine. He did not have the tools you have received. He didn't even ask for transparency, however, I had learned the importance of it from the board. So, I just did it.

He was kind and patient, b/c he is the nice-guy type. He forgave and did not throw it up in my face. He never has. I wanted MC, but he flatly refused. Whatever feelings he had, he kept locked away. He has never opened himself to me very much at all.

You have to remember, he was not the one who came here seeking help.......I was. So, it doesn't help you to look at my H, b/c he did not seek out any tools. He didn't work to change. I was the one who made the changes. The board was my counselor.

It should be noted [and Sandi has been around long enough I hope to not be offended or feel I'm bashing her and her husband by saying this - I'm trying to be instructional - not "destructional" - I apologize if I get something wrong and please correct any of the story I'm getting mistaken about] that Sandi's husband's strategy worked in part and didn't work in part.

Sandi fell off the wagon and continued her electronic affair secretly for quite some time after her first big Dday before getting busted or confessing again. Being "a nice and trusting guy" that didn't hold Sandi accountable and didn't inspect what he expected came back to bite him (AND SANDI) in the butt again thereafter.

What he did do right and eventually led to reconciliation is he remained a nice guy that didn't throw it in her face and was forgiving.

Tough love, self respect, what is a boundary and what is manipulation are very difficult paths to walk.

Waywards act like teenagers. You have to watch them like a hawk, sometime without them knowing. If you give an inch, they may take a mile some days and others be very respectful and appreciative of just the inch. You can ground (put on restriction) a teenager but you're probably not going to make them miss prom because they were late on curfew the previous week. Some day when they are adults (or the wayward comes completely out of the fog) they express their appreciation and understanding that you did everything you did to help them be and become better people. That you loved them enough to save them from themselves.

Sandi's husband messed up because he trusted her to implement and maintain "no contact" from the get-go instead of becoming her accountability partner who explained why "no contact" was important FOR BOTH OF THEM and helped her implement and maintain it (and catching her emotionally if and when she failed - for example if OM went around boundaries and contacted her).

Sandi's husband MAY HAVE BEEN able to save them both a lot of time but had he implemented such too strictly or harshly or meanly he might have lost what inevitable led Sandi back to him in the end ---- his kindness and Christian heart of forgiveness. Further....maybe Sandi wasn't really ready to give up OM and had her husband pushed their marriage would be over today because Sandi was still too foggy to allow her husband to "control" and watch over her. Sandi had agency and ultimate responsibility for her choices and the consequences resulting therefrom. They may have ended up divorced because Sandi couldn't handle being accountable OR they could have divorced because her husband wouldn't continue in the marriage without accountability. However, I tend to believe you can hurry recovery along a bit by just doing it right the first time and dealing with a little conflict up front rather than pushing the conflict down the road by simply over trusting and forgiving way too quickly (i.e. - NO CONTACT is so vital to recovery that it has to be an uncompromising boundary and commitment that includes enthusiastic voluntary mutually accountability just like you welcome her holding you accountable for your PAST porn problem).

You can handle her anger. You can be supportive of withdrawal. You can handle anything as long as she sticks to "NO CONTACT" with the hope and promise that things will slowly get better in a few weeks and months.

In the meantime - don't worry about whether she can ever love you again or any of that junk (sure she can - she loved you once - she can do it again) but for now maintain to the greatest extent you can your presence around her (while not pursing and pushing constantly to have serious talks - talk when she's ready but even then mostly just listen as God works within her to bring her to full repentance), distracting her from idleness (where she'll be her most weak and tempted to check on or in with OM), and engaging her in escapism (take her out for fun or on a road trip just the two of you to "get away from life" for a bit) all are great things to do while dealing with a withdrawing wayward wife.

BTW - no contact includes Facebook and social media. She's better off shutting down her online presence all together because he mind will tell her OM is watching and reading what she puts out there on social media so even NOT communicating with him IS communicating with him and she'll be tempted to stalk OM on social media to check in with what he's doing, posting, saying along with spending hours searching his friends and family for activity about him. My wife and I went social media free for several years. Considering your issues with porn you almost need to share a laptop at home that you both use and therefore have full access to at any time. Years ago I'd say get just one computer tower and nothing portable (get flop phones and no portable laptops that can be taken into private rooms and used nefariously - but the online world just isn't easy for people to just avoid or turn off anymore).


Another mistake Sandi's husband made - and I think it's a good selling point for the betrayed to give the wayward as they struggle with the why bother trying with a spouse I don't see myself ever loving again and I don't want to go back to my crappy marriage - was thinking Sandi would just "bounce back" into the same wife she was before. Correct me if I'm wrong Trumpet - but as I recall your marriage wasn't really working great for you either. Why would YOU want to simply go back to your old crappy marriage? Further - YOU actually have a biblical out. You can divorce her now AND, most biblical scholars believe, for the rest of your marriage based upon her adultery. It's kind of like someone borrowing your crappy beater car (that you loved anyway) and they completely total it. Instead of getting you a new car - they just fix the crappy car best they can and return it. You don't want that car anymore. You just can't love it again because it's driving crooked and making all sorts of noises - it's just not safe or fun anymore - SO you want a new car to love. It's the same with marriage after infidelity. The old marriage is gone and you BOTH failed at it. It wasn't making either of you happy or content so why go back? Instead - you BOTH ---- TOGETHER have the opportunity here to learn how to have a great marriage that is satisfying to BOTH of you.

So cliff notes version - your wife isn't in love with you and you aren't in love with her. How do you fall in love with someone - spend a lot of time together, talking, dating, meeting each other's needs the way they like them met and really coming into a mature marital relationship that values marriage and each other more than you ever have before.

A key point - your wife may have felt at one time neglected by you and unloved but if she really looks at how you've stood up and by her this last year, she should come to realize that she will NEVER be loved by anyone enough to put up with what she did to you and still stand there ready to forgive and love. No matter how this eventually turns out - you've done well standing up for her, your marriage and your family.

[trumpet]

Wow, GB. I'll read this again later on.

It's been a struggle the first few days. Lots of anger from wife. Lots of mistrust that she's really NC. She's upset that I spied on her, and says she needs some form of privacy to express herself, that I should just 'trust' her. She is having a tough time with transparency, and how we can trust each other. She's not ready to admit to herself just how much trust I've lost in her, and how much work she needs to do to built it back. I should just 'trust' her like before the affair. I keep telling her she's got work to do... I think she feels so depressed, and like the mountain to climb is too much for her. Giving up and going back to OM is the easy choice.

I think ANY effort to discuss things with her right now are met with lots of backlash. We got the hold order for the divorce. I was upset that wife told me it was 4-6 months, but the paperwork is just 90 days. That didn't go over well. Still haven't signed it.

Should I sign it as a way to show support? Should I wait for her to sign it?

Going on a trip with her sounds awesome, but with how fragile we are, I would imagine we'd have a R talk on the trip. And right now, they just don't go over well AT ALL.

It's almost like I need to continue to DB until she's completely remorseful, ready to do some work. Right now, she's a puddle, posting on Facebook that she wants someone to love her unconditionally. Ugh.

[SciDad]

Lots of mistrust that she's really NC. She's upset that I spied on her, and says she needs some form of privacy to express herself, that I should just 'trust' her. She is having a tough time with transparency, and how we can trust each other. She's not ready to admit to herself just how much trust I've lost in her, and how much work she needs to do to built it back.

I got the same response from my wife. I know she doesn't get it so I just told her I needed time to work on it and don't tell her how hard it is for me to trust her. All it does is push her away, so I try to work out my issues without her. I think there will be a point where your wife realizes how much she hurt you and how hard it is for you to trust her. The problem is that She needs to get there on her own and you can't speed up the process (actually, it only slows it down when you remind her). My approach was just to say that we'd be in a holding pattern while she works on her immediate issues, then let it drop. If she brings anything up on how we're not moving forward, I will remind her the reason, but gently. Not the best solution, but all I could think of.

I should just 'trust' her like before the affair. I keep telling her she's got work to do... I think she feels so depressed, and like the mountain to climb is too much for her. Giving up and going back to OM is the easy choice.

Stop telling your wife she's got a lot of work to do. She knows it and I think you need to stfu about it.

We got the hold order for the divorce. I was upset that wife told me it was 4-6 months, but the paperwork is just 90 days. That didn't go over well. Still haven't signed it.

Should I sign it as a way to show support? Should I wait for her to sign it?

Have you talked to her about it? Rationally without emotion? What was her response?

Going on a trip with her sounds awesome, but with how fragile we are, I would imagine we'd have a R talk on the trip. And right now, they just don't go over well AT ALL.

Maybe start out smaller. Find excuses to spend time together without the kids. Let it build to something bigger if it seems like it's too much now

Right now, she's a puddle, posting on Facebook that she wants someone to love her unconditionally. Ugh.

She is still confused and depressed. Personally I'd pretend I never saw those posts and try to find ways to SHOW her that you love her unconditionally. If you are consistent she'll figure it out. I think you also might need to stop looking at her facebook posts if possible. It seems like they're sending you on a tailspin.

[trumpet]

Ugh. I'm so struggling with this.

I want to crawl in a hole and hibernate. My wife can have her 2 weeks of mourning for her OM, and then I can start to talk with her again. Every time I talk with her, my W reaches and takes what I've said to hurt her.

My safe words: Hello. Goodnight.

Anything else is construed to demean her, judge her, criticize her, put her down, make her feel bad.

Even asking her 'how was your day?' is met with anger. That I'm insinuating that I had a great day, and it's meant to put her down.

Ugh. This is sooo hard.

I'm committed to my beliefs. I believe we are better together than apart. I'm committed to my wife. Everything else - who knows.

[Vanilla]

OK

Start with a beginners mind.

Try body language, and smiling, and neutrality, "of course"

Sympathetic head nods.

It's called withdrawal, let her withdraw.

If she were detoxing what would you do?

Shrug it, hangovers are self inflicted!

V

[Georgia Bulldogs]

First thing is understanding the anger. It's withdrawal but it's also upsettedness over the whole thing. It's not a fun place to be as a betrayed husband dealing with a wife who won't stop cheating on you AND blames you for their cheating at the same time. They are too foggy to teach so arguing and explaining too much just leads to stupid unnecessary conflict (as opposed to necessary conflict over the essential and all important "no contact" boundary). I liken it to the "what came first, the chicken or the egg" debate. Your wife FEELS she's a good person that never would have cheated on you - had you been a wonderful supportive and attentive husband like you promised to be - therefore the affair is YOUR fault. Such thoughts are exacerbated by this idea that NOW- you want to be the perfect husband - which is either an act to trap her and you'll just go back to being the same schmuck and while she loses her true love forever OR it's worse, you always could have been this great guy and you deliberately chose not to be - AGAIN - she'll keep coming back to this either way "her choice to cheat never would have happened had you not neglected her and had a porn problem". It's bullcrap. You are responsible for you choices - just as she is responsible for hers. She could have just filed for divorce and; maybe, in the process force you to address your shame and failings without having to going behind your back and undertake the most hurtful or all hurtful actions - betrayal and infidelity. But it's too soon to argue and you'll just end up in this never ending circle of responsibility always coming back to you. In my situation I just said "sure...I can see that and I wish I could go back in time and change the way I behaved but that's not going to help us figure out anything today. I'm not that person anymore and frankly, neither are you - we are both broken and we can either TRY to build each other up or keep knocking each other down. Let's just avoid that complex debate for now because I don't care who's wrong, who's right and what happened yesterday, last year and 5 years ago - let's focus on TODAY. Right here - right NOW. Let's go bowling or Let's take a road trip or Let's strip the bathroom wallpaper and remodel our bathroom - [occupy her time, distract from anger and arguments that can't be figured out yet and tend to escape into some activity that isn't so heavy and emotional].


As I suggested before....road trips are great. Talking side by side in a car is actually a great way to handle conflict because eye contact can actually escalate things. My wife and I took a road trip and listened to a book called His Needs, Her Needs on CD. We paused and discussed things several, strike that, MANY times but I tried to limit conversation to just 5-10 minutes because we would never get through the book otherwise and because, like you, I saw our conversations coming back to arguments, blaming and hopelessness so I figured this was more an exercise of education, planting seeds and trying to resuscitate hope. You could get "5 Love Languages" or "Fall in Love, Stay in Love" it really doesn't matter what book as long as the message is one of how to build (restore) and maintain love in your NEW reconciling relationship. MWD is working on her recovery book now but you want to avoid directing her anywhere near here so you can maintain your private life support forum in case this thing turns south again. [though I wonder how you can maintain porn accountability yourself and still have secret private access to here and the internet at the same time???] Obviously, you BOTH need to work on your relationship skills...if not only for yourselves, but also for your children. You BOTH have such a huge opportunity to model repentance, forgiveness and RESILIENCE to your children. To model that people make mistakes (sin) and that they can come back from that and be/become decent, loving, God-fearing persons again. That people aren't disposable but that boundaries are important (which is also a reason you need to be firm in your "no contact" boundary so you can also model to your children that they are not required to tolerate never ceasing emotional abuse just because).

That brings me to another point - SHE wants "unconditional love" (which is such the typical entitled wayward battle cry; but, I digress) - what about you - were you and are you entitled to "unconditional love" too. She obviously hasn't given it to you either or she'd have been just fine with your porn issue instead of resentful enough to justify betraying her vows. What does "unconditional love" even mean? You both could use some lessons about it. I tend to believe that, unlike God, we humans are pretty much incapable of "unconditional love". Instead we undertake relationships on a barter system of giving and taking. If we give too much...we get resentful, complain, nag and pretty much make the recipient pay (one way or another) for our sacrifice. That's what your wife did....she FEELS she gave and gave and gave and put up with your neglect and porn use and NOW it was her turn to become the one taking (which is how they come to end up being so selfish and entitled - it's ME time).

Onto another thought - your wife already has unconditional love from God and His lost [foggy] sheep are not forgotten or foresaken. He loves her and He and the angels will rejoice in her (and your) repentance:

3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent. Luke 15:3-7 NIV

Jesus was sent out of God's love for us despite our sinful natures. Incidentally, this illustration of the shepherd caring the sheep on his shoulders was the original figure used to identify Christians before people began identifying Christianity with crosses. In this parable Jesus paints a beautiful picture of God’s grace in His desire to see His lost loved ones return to Him. Men seek honor and avoid shame; God seeks to glorify Himself through us His sheep, His sons and daughters. Despite having ninety-nine other sheep, despite the sinful rebellion of His lost sheep, God joyfully receives it back, just as He does when we repent and return to Him. [reminder - you are commiserating WITH HER because TOGETHER you are/were BOTH the lost sheep in this mess]

On to the anger about spying and lack of trust issue.

Perhaps without pursuing or lecturing you can relate a personal struggle or anecdote - how initially when you were busted looking at and using porn you were upset that she invaded your secret sin. That you were ashamed and just secretly wished at the time that your wife would just ignore it or accept it. I mean - it's not like she acted like she wanted to have sex with you all the time anyway so why couldn't she be like Bob or Jim's wife who just kind of has a "don't ask, don't tell" policy with regards to their porn use for masturbation. At least you weren't bugging her. Certainly you had all sorts of rationalizations and justifications for using porn. But now - through the gift of repentance (which literally means - "to change your mind"), you want to thank her for busting you and spying on you. Though you couldn't see it then - NOW you can clearly EMPATHIZE with what she must have been going through and feeling every time she caught you AGAIN. Probably much the same as you feel every time you catch her breaking her commitment to "no contact" and continuing her illicit relationship with OM.

Then you express how going forward in your relationship, you intend to keep open access to all your computer passwords, phones and computers such that she can, BY PERMISSION (which is technically not spying - it's asking someone to hold you accountable to your commitments), check up on you anytime she wants. This is something you expect her to do every day, every month or even every year if she doesn't want to. You don't want her to ever feel like you can't control yourself and she has to babysit you. However, just the fact that somebody can check at any time helps you be a better person. That everyone would be a better person if a camera was on them at all times. Be accountable is what good people do and what individuals in the most successful marriages just do naturally. Think of it like a safety net. I made a promise to you and myself not to use porn anymore. I could white knuckle and probably do it. It's not like I'm only going to be able to avoid porn because my wife is watching me. But those hard days where maybe things aren't so great in our marriage or I'm feeling a little neglected or unloved and my mind wants to rationalize and justify me just using it once or twice, having someone who COULD hold me accountable and catch me might probably be just the HELP I need to keep me from being the weak sinful man history has proven me to be. I may have repented of my sin; but I'm still human - JUST AS YOU ARE. (I love this part) - you can then say "I know what you are thinking. - As you go "no contact" your brain is, right now, as we speak, playing tricks on you. It's looking at me like I'm some kind of monster that you fear you're never going to truly have genuine feelings for again and I'm probably never going to let you forget you cheated on me. It's telling you that you'd be so much happier with OM and since you can't stop thinking about him it must be because OM is your soulmate and you're a fool to throw that away for this weak sinful man sitting in front of you. That is your brain trying to hold on to sin. Your FEELINGS are trying to get you to make one more call to him - just to see how he is doing. Your FEELINGS are telling you it's not going to work with me...so why bother going "No Contact". It's ironic but that same addiction thinking you have with OM, you also have with me - the other night when it finally seemed like it was over and we we're going to divorce and split up our wonderful family - what FEELING overcame you and had you pull out our old photo albums and reminisce???? Like it or not - you are addicted, so to speak to me, our family, our history just as much as you're addicted right now to OM. This also works for me - why else to I keep coming back to you ready to try to reconcile with you even though I keep getting punched in the face every time I do it. I'm addicted to you and I can't imagine a world with out ______ (your first name) and ______ (her first name).

So how do we know what feelings are true and which feelings aren't true? We don't. Feelings just are. They are neither truth nor lies. But the constant is FEELINGS CHANGE. We can control our feelings and override our feelings and behave in contradiction to our feelings if, when and how we choose. Therefore it comes down to choices which can be looked at more logically:

1. Being with me, means losing OM forever - No Contact for Life - and a good shot at building a truly wonderful NEW marriage that is satisfying and happy for both of us.

2. Being with OM means losing me (divorced couples don't remain friends) and it involves losing 1/2 your time with your kids, your house, your home and our shared history. It probably means moving out of state to where OM is and leaving your family behind because legally you can't take them with you (and I say that not as a punishment but what would you do if I said I wanted to move with the children to Maine, you'd say 'shove off' and you'd be backed by Wisconsin law which has jurisdiction to settle child custody disputes).

Then Choice Three -

3. Being with both of us - completely miserable and unbearable for literally EVERYONE involved and completely unworkable. It's what you've been doing and keep insisting on the right to do every time you say you need privacy and space. I'm not an idiot or a fool...you want space and privacy because this completely unrealistic and unworkable "choice three" is the only thing that appeases both your addiction to OM and your attachment to everything we have here, including me.

I'm not giving you an ultimatum. I'm before you because I understand your dilemma and want to help you escape it. Choice Three is a trap. It's traps everyone....OM, me, our children and our whole extended family in this crisis. I don't want to SPY on you - I want you to let me help you stay accountable to your CHOICE ONE promise that you've made to me/us several times now and just can't stick to because your feelings keep getting in the way. Why should you let me help you - because you need help....being trapped in sin is anxiety, guilt and shame ridden. I know...I've been there. It's so much more peaceful here after repentance. After being the scared lost sheep that was finally found and returned to the comfort of his flock. Being lost messes with your ability to be rational and logical. You KNOW Choice One is right (biblically and morally) but it's so hard to put those feelings behind you.....

Some overriding truths (truths NOT feelings)

1. There is hope. We both know that if we are faithful to Him, He will provide. He brought us together for a reason and maybe this is it. What if this is our shining moment to bring glory to God through repentance and reconciliation? We are both better than this.

2. Feelings lie. OM isn't your friend. He's an interloper that got way too involved with a unavailable married woman. After a few weeks and months of "no contact" I promise you that no matter what happens between us you will come to realize that OM isn't and wasn't ever any good for you. Decent men (not that I'm an expert on decent men but I'm learning) don't pursue married women with children and split up families. Had I died several years ago and you were single you wouldn't have given this guy the time of day. Just because you love him doesn't make him lovable. His choices and actions speak for themselves.

3. Neither one of us are "in love" with each other right now and it's probably been that way for quite awhile now - but - you have children together and the best outcome for our children is for us to rise above and overcome this and make our marriage great. It's the best outcome for everyone involved and therefore, something we should at least TRY to achieve. I'm not asking you to commit your love to me today....all we can do is commit to trying today and the only way to try honestly is by going and maintaining strict NO CONTACT WITH OM because, honestly, I done with choice three - AREN'T YOU?

4. I may have been a pretty crappy and sinful husband but I have repented of my sins and my sins are as far as the east from the west. You can keep being angry and upset and blaming towards me for my prior sins because my prior choices have consequences; however, I am not that man anymore. Who I was is not who I am today. Likewise, if and when you choose to fully repent for your sins, I will not be able to lord your prior poor choices over you. Finally - I stand before you humbly willing to forgive you for huge transgressions against me while hoping you'll accept my apologies for my past behavior and forgive me. We are in the same boat TOGETHER and the only way both of us can overcome the resentments we have about and towards each other is by starting over and building a new marriage of excellence. Mediocrity isn't the goal here and; if in one year of trying either one of us feels that it's just not going to work. We can divorce amicably knowing we both gave "us" it's best shot.


Pretty much sums up my all day drafting of a single post between numerous interruptions. Hope it's not too choppy. I also advise you NOT to write out the above. These are go-to discussion points and how to frame discussions and deal logically with the devastating spew that way ward wive's in withdrawal and early recovery love to throw out there. Overall just remember you are a good guy undertaking a noble effort to right a wrong (your behavior) and help save your wife from throwing away her life into sin. It may or may not work out but you can be assured that God's will will be done one way or another. You'll make it and hopefully you can save her and your family in the process.

In His name.





.

[trumpet]

GB,

Where do I send the check? Really, you spent enough time on this that you should charge me. WOW.

Ummmm, thank you. WOW.

Very humbling to read this. And to be humbled is a great thing. Pride is so pervasive in our society, and in my life. I am so not worthy of my wife's love, and especially Christ's love.

I need to keep praying to stay humble, and keep my mouth shut as much as possible.

You, Sandi, Zeus, and others have been instrumental in helping me. Some days I ask why I pay a counselor.

[JGuy]

It's almost like I need to continue to DB until she's completely remorseful, ready to do some work. Right now, she's a puddle, posting on Facebook that she wants someone to love her unconditionally. Ugh.

When I suggested that you could try to hold a space in yourself to have compassion for her, that's unconditional love I was talking about. But that doesn't mean you drop your love for yourself, you have to sustain both. She may be in denial and cannot see how much you are loving her unconditionally, but if you can stick to that without expecting her to recognize you for it immediately, then by the time she comes out of the fog, she may look back and realize that you have been loving her unconditionally all along. I think Sandi is right that it won't make any difference right now, but that's not the point. Right now you are writing the book that she will pick up and read later, once she's out of the fog. What do you want her to see when she opens that book? I like what Vanilla said:

Try body language, and smiling, and neutrality, "of course"

Sympathetic head nods.

I'm definitely not an expert on this DBing yet, so take it with a grain of salt. But focusing on this "quiet compassion" approach has been helpful for me recently, as it has allowed me to stay more calm and confident in the face of WW spew.

[ARose]

Thank you GB, what a great post. I am not at the point yet where my H will say that he wants to remain in the marriage but I am going to read and re-read your post. As Trumpet said, WOW.

[Tyler12]

Yes! It was a great read and I hope I will also be at the same point. In the mean time tho I am going to re read as well. Thanks GB