Letting go, finally

[JGuy]

Today I went to see a shamanic healer who was highly recommended by a friend at work. I have been open to trying all kinds of things to see what works and this is one that I was really curious about and looking forward to.

In summary, I was really pleased with how it went. It was mostly just very relaxing. The healer said prayers to ask various guardian spirits and spirit guides for their help. Then she was silent for about 30 minutes while I relaxed and she journeyed. At the end, she told me about everything that happened.

The first spirit she encountered was my father. He came to give his blessing and support for the process of me healing my masculine energy. He acknowledged that there had been some misinformation about how love is supposed to work, which was passed down through his side of the family.

Then she saw that parts of my soul had been scattered about, lost in various experiences and with various people in my life. She started first with my W, who was holding onto a big piece of my soul, and she was running away. The healer had to chase her down, eventually caught up with her. My W did not want to let it go, but eventually she did. There was more, but my W ran off again. She had to chase her down again. This time, my W was even more reluctant to give up the remaining piece she was holding on to. She insisted that I had given it to her, so she felt like it was hers now. The healer showed her that it was actually part of men and eventually convinced her to let it go.

There was more, pieces that she recovered from when I was 12 and 16 years old, lost due to various insecurities and heartbreaks.

She brought all the pieces of my soul back to me and explained how it might take me a couple of weeks to integrate this after our session. She talked about how I needed to learn how to contain myself better and not give away these parts of myself in relationships. She said that I should learn how to "meet in the middle", but not cross that line in pursuit of love. I have to be willing to be alone if my partner does not come to the middle as well. By learning this, I can be sure not to lose myself in relationships anymore.

This last part was very consistent with what the other two ICs have been telling me I need to learn. It's also consistent with what one counselor told me 10 years ago, and with what another clairvoyant told me 9 years ago.

I did feel quite different when I got home, but I'm really looking forward to seeing how I feel over the next two weeks!

[JGuy]

I have been doing a lot of GALing recently. Hanging out with friends and making new ones. I am doing a lot of inner focusing to get in touch with my feelings. Lots of reflecting on what I'm learning about myself from IC. I'm seeing more and more clues into my core fears that cause my own co-dependent behaviors. I'm bonding with others who can relate. It has been nice to hear about other people's woes as it takes the focus of mine for a change. The past 4 days were uneventful in terms of interaction with my W, but today we had an MC session where she was courageous enough to really discuss things openly.

She came out and openly stated that she wants to separate. She is scared about change, about shaking things up for our son, and she repeated what she has said previously which is that she would prefer to separate while remaining living together for the sake of the family. What I have stated previously, which I stated again, is that I am definitely not interested in staying in a dead marriage with no intention whatsoever of reviving it. I don't agree it would be good for our son to try and sustain a facade of marriage, especially while she continues her EA. Kids are smart and they can see what's going on. My W's gig is to hide things, that's what she has been doing all along. She's basically saying that she'd like to continue with that. This couldn't feel more wrong to me! My style is to be honest and transparent and be a living example to my son of how to embrace change and handle life's difficult situations with courage and grace. So, I'm not willing to go along with that.

The MC facilitated a discussion between us where it became starkly clear just how far out of alignment we are. Despite the fact that my W sees me as a wonderful man and father, she sees herself as irreparably tainted and unforgivable, unworthy of me. Her actions that led to the downfall of our M have a strange quality of appearing to be driven by a self-fulfilling prophecy in which she deeply believes she doesn't belong in the good life that we have created together. Since I have known her, she always spoke of a darkness in her heart, an unlovable view of herself which she was able to see, but never believed that she could ever overcome. I always cheered for her to fight it, to get help, to question those false beliefs, but they had a strength over her that in the end were much more powerful than any strength that I may have had to influence her.

Today, it became clearer than ever to me that one really cannot influence or motivate another person when it comes to these types of personal battles. They have to be motivated and ready to face it themselves. I am realizing that the big lesson for me is in learning to let people be in charge of their own lives. I need to value myself more by cultivating my ability to love and giving that love to whomever is willing and able to receive it. When I make a project out of trying to fix someone so they can receive my love, I am bound to fail. So it seems, letting go of my W is exactly what the doctor ordered.

The MC session proceeded with a discussion about how separation might unfold. We have already established that she would move out while I keep the house. But there are still many questions remaining to be answered. How soon should she move out? Should we do a legal separation, or just go straight for divorce? There are lots of little steps we can start taking, beginning with doing a budget and figuring out whether it's even possible for me to keep the house myself if I have to re-mortage after buying out her half.

Her fear of change makes her want to just avoid all of this, stay in denial, and maintain the facade of marriage. I don't support that intention at all. I have never been one to give up easily... I would rather see this as an opportunity to reinvent ourselves, face our issues, start from scratch with a beginner's mind, and give our M the last chance it deserves. It's clear that this just isn't going to happen. Ironically, since she's the avoider, it's likely going to have to be me who does all the leg work of making a separation actually happen.

While I have already been grieving and accepting the loss of my M for the past month, today there was a finality that brought feelings of anger and disappointment after the MC session, but also a feeling of relief and closure. My W was crying and apologizing for all of this mess as we left. I didn't really know what to say. She could choose to make it right, but won't. I shared a few words with her to this end, but I have to let go of trying to make her see things the way I do. This is really hard for me, even now that it feels final.

I'm going to sit with this and really challenge myself in the days ahead to accept that I must let her steer her own ship now. What she does with her life isn't my business anymore. All that energy I put into trying to influence her could be going into other things which I really can influence to create happiness for myself. Saying this is one thing, but doing it is hard. Here we go...

[JellyB]

Despite the fact that my W sees me as a wonderful man and father, she sees herself as irreparably tainted and unforgivable, unworthy of me. Her actions that led to the downfall of our M have a strange quality of appearing to be driven by a self-fulfilling prophecy in which she deeply believes she doesn't belong in the good life that we have created together. Since I have known her, she always spoke of a darkness in her heart, an unlovable view of herself which she was able to see, but never believed that she could ever overcome. I always cheered for her to fight it, to get help, to question those false beliefs, but they had a strength over her that in the end were much more powerful than any strength that I may have had to influence her.

Today, it became clearer than ever to me that one really cannot influence or motivate another person when it comes to these types of personal battles. They have to be motivated and ready to face it themselves. I am realizing that the big lesson for me is in learning to let people be in charge of their own lives. I need to value myself more by cultivating my ability to love and giving that love to whomever is willing and able to receive it. When I make a project out of trying to fix someone so they can receive my love, I am bound to fail. So it seems, letting go of my W is exactly what the doctor ordered.

Thank you for sharing the above JGuy. You just summed up my behaviour, feelings and actions in my relationship with Mr Ex.

I am truly sorry that my darkness killed a loving relationship. I commend your willingness to remain committed to your M and commitment. It would seem that there wasn't enough of that with my ex. But who can blame him.

I don't blame or resent the decision my ex made, saying he had enough. It is hard to love and remain committed to someone, who rejects everything you give them. If your W is anything like me. She will always know and regret that she wasn't able to pull herself together to make it last.

This post is selfish on my behalf JGuy, because it hit a nerve and resonated.

I hope for the very best for you and family.

Thank you

Jellyxxx

[rd500]

Hi Jguy , glad you are finally accepting what your W has wanted since day 1. She's always said she was afraid to lose the financial side of the M and in fairness she did not waiver from that

I have followed your thread and again , I'm going to be honest , so take it anyway you want but it's meant with good intentions

Since your very first post you have ignored all advice unless you " felt it "' or understood it completely and agreed that it was right for you Most advice on here is against what you ( anyone ) would feel is right so you can choose to follow it or not

You have seen two ICs and a shaman who's advice you jump on because you agree that you are too giving with yourself yet a few posts ago you tell how you have very little empathy for yourself or anyone else. Do you see how you are taking things piecemeal to fit your own ideas

Your W thinks you are wonderful , this you accept without question and have repeated this in many posts but when your W told you weeks ago she wanted to seperate you would not accept that is what she meant. I gave advice and you took it very badly , Vanillia in the next post , gave broadly the same advice but because of how you perceived it , you accepted Vanillias and thought mine was not for you. Vanillia pointed out that both advices were very similar but you could not see that


All the above is me trying to get you to see yourself through others eyes I have no doubt you are a decent , loving man who has loads of goods traits and are a decent dad BUT no one has all the answers all the time and no one can navigate through a crisis like this without advice

Your W is a typical Wayward / WAW who wants it all and expects by feeding you scraps that she can cake eat her way through life. She has lied to your face and yet when she does admit the truth , you call her courageous !!!! Telling the truth is not courageous , it's normal. Please see this woman for what she is and not what you expect her to be. She's a sieral cheater who has told you things you wanted to hear for a few months now while never changing her real feelings

Jguy , this post is the same as my others , you need to do what's right for you and stop letting W control you with lies and emotions

I know you have been drawn into a cult before and from your posts it's sort of understandable because you leap onto anything that vaguely gives your views value. I'm not saying all your views lack value more that when we face adversity I believe most people can easily choose the path of least resistance

Again , this post is to attempt to get you see reality and maybe accept some responsibility for your own actions in the breakdown of the M.

From an outsiders viewpoint nothing has changed in your W or you and how will things improve if neither of you change W is clearly unhappy with the M and is looking elseware for love , etc and JGuy believes if only W would change everything would be ok and Jguys basically a great guy and why can't W see this

Just before I finish , I will explain that I have owned my own business since I was 23 , I'm a great guy ( my Ws words ) and I treated my W like a queen and she never asked for a thing , she left me and my 4 kids to live a seemingly very poor existence and has threatened suicide and is now on anti depressants She still can't understand her choices and has gone from a fit , attractive looking woman to a under fed , sickly looking woman. .Can I explain this , no , at the start I tried to explain to her how this would play out and funny enough she didn't listen. I came on here and I listened to the advice and went to an I/C who challenged me and told me many home truths that I certainly did not care to hear BUT I listened because for the first time in my adult life , I did not have the answers , I could not fix this with my intellect or natural ability to get everything in my life that I ever wanted.

It's 14 months now but I'm still learning and I have no doubt I will always be learning A better Dad a better business man and most defiantly a better Partner should I ever find someone

Please accept that I , like everybody on this site , wants you to be happy and for your family to be complete For this to happen there is work you need to do on you and leave W to her own choices. This is the same advice you've got from day one

Take care. Rd

[Zues126]

agreed rd. I mentioned in my post on 1/15 that pride is his biggest challenge. He is insufferable. I believe that this divorce will be the hammer that is trying to shape him into a different image, I hope he lets go and allows it to transform him.

[shreeve]

Holy cow Zues, that's some great tough love

[shreeve]

This post is amazing everybody, you don't know how much i is helping me. Zues mentioned in one comment that the advice / tips are not only for OP, but for everyone reading. I can assure you that I am one reading and this is tremendously helpful. It is so comforting to me that there are many of us in same sitch and things are really moving forward with them. It certainly gives me a lot of hope and I think I'm getting closer everyday. Keep the comments coming, Im loving it! Another note, my divorce care group mentioned boundaries and I saw Zues mention it here - where can I learn more about setting healthy boundaries?

[JGuy]

Rd and Zeus, I am going to try to explain myself again, and from the way this has gone up until now, I'm expecting you'll probably interpret this response as defensiveness motivated by pride. The degree to which I have felt misunderstood at times has been a source of ongoing disappointment throughout my interactions with you here. I am reaching the point where I'm questioning whether this is really the right place for me to seek support. I would like to resolve this, whether that means me coming to see whatever it is that I'm missing, or you coming to see whatever it is that you are missing, or maybe a bit of both.

Since your very first post you have ignored all advice unless you " felt it "' or understood it completely and agreed that it was right for you Most advice on here is against what you ( anyone ) would feel is right so you can choose to follow it or not

You have seen two ICs and a shaman who's advice you jump on because you agree that you are too giving with yourself yet a few posts ago you tell how you have very little empathy for yourself or anyone else. Do you see how you are taking things piecemeal to fit your own ideas

I can see how you might interpret my need to think for myself as "taking things piecemeal to fit my own ideas". Thinking for myself doesn't mean I'm ignoring your advice, or that I'm clinging to my own ideas, it just means I consider your advice carefully as I follow my own inner compass. With the help of the advice here as well as IC and books I'm reading, I continue to calibrate my compass and revise my own ideas. I have made good use of much of the advice I have received, but not the parts that don't resonate with me. If the fact that I don't follow 100% of your advice without question is frowned upon here and considered to be prideful, then we have a pretty serious alignment problem.

I have said from the beginning that I am an independent thinker and I will only follow advice that I understand and which resonates. I shared my cult experience with folks here so as to help everyone understand why I'm like this, so they wouldn't take it personally. But I feel like folks are still not getting it and still taking me the wrong way. So once again: The cult experience caused me to lose my inner compass and follow the tribe instead. I had to go through an arduous journey to find my compass again. This was an extremely difficult and confusing experience that taught me I can never again let go of my inner compass by thinking that someone else knows better than I do about what's right for me. That doesn't mean I should ignore advice from others entirely, it just means that it's up to me to listen to the advice and use it to steer my own ship. There's a difference between listening to what others say to gather advice on how to steer my own ship, versus falling into self doubt and letting them steer my ship for me. So when I say that I don't appreciate the 2x4 approach, it is not my pride that I intend to protect. It is my self esteem (the healthy belief that I can steer my own ship) that I intend to protect.

Your W thinks you are wonderful , this you accept without question

Not true. Whenever she said this, I reminded her that I'm definitely not perfect and I have things to learn too. I don't want to be on a pedestal. The reason why I'm mentioning that she said this is because I want people to know she has given me very few clues about what my unattractive behavior might be. I have been trying to figure it out by myself. My empathy issues are the biggest guess I have come up with so far.

When your W told you weeks ago she wanted to seperate you would not accept that is what she meant.

Not true. I accepted it, but then she waffled back and forth, said she wasn't certain in the days that followed. I continued trying to let go anyways.

I gave advice and you took it very badly , Vanilla in the next post, gave broadly the same advice but because of how you perceived it , you accepted Vanillas and thought mine was not for you. Vanilla pointed out that both advices were very similar but you could not see that

Rd, the reason why I took your advice badly is because you made very harsh, judgmental statements, such as "It's very hard to explain something to someone who does not want to listen", and "all you seem to do is force your opinion on others". When people say things like this to me, I feel like if you're right then I must be a bad person. Vanilla offered honest, tough love advice but with with compassion, sensitivity, and respect for the fact that I do want to listen. She said "The need to be right may be something of a blocker in your R" which was not judgmental or blaming. It was a suggestion for me to consider, take it or leave it. I do see the similarity in the advice, but the harshness in how you communicated really pushed me away. Perhaps if I had a tougher skin I could "take it like a man", but that's just not the kind of man I am, at least not yet. When people talk to me that way, I feel attacked and I shut down and I'm just not open to taking any advice that is delivered like that.

On that note, in response to what Vanilla said: "The need to be right may be something of a blocker in your R". I thought about this, and I'm thinking about it again now. Obviously, I am giving some people here that impression, but I don't get that feedback from anyone else in my life. When my W and I have had arguments, I am usually the first to admit that I could be missing something that I need to learn. I usually care much more about connection than I do about being right, but I do seek connection by seeking to be understood. When I feel misunderstood, it leads me to be very persistent about re-explaining myself better, over and over. Perhaps that makes me seem like I just want to be right? I'm not sure. All I know is I just want people to understand me.

Please see this woman for what she is and not what you expect her to be. She's a serial cheater who has told you things you wanted to hear for a few months now while never changing her real feelings

I agree with you there, rd500. This is the same thing I have been saying recently, but when I say it, I get told that I am blaming all the M problems on her instead of looking at my own issues. It's pretty confusing.

I came on here and I listened to the advice and went to an I/C who challenged me and told me many home truths that I certainly did not care to hear BUT I listened because for the first time in my adult life , I did not have the answers

I appreciate you sharing this about yourself, Rd. I'm glad you found what worked for you. It seems like mine was the opposite problem. My pattern when I was younger was to not trust myself and to think that I don't have the answers inside of me and that instead of trusting myself, I must find someone to follow. That's how I got drawn into the cult and got burned, learned that one the hard way.

Please accept that I, like everybody on this site , wants you to be happy and for your family to be complete. For this to happen there is work you need to do on you and leave W to her own choices. This is the same advice you've got from day one.

I'm 100% aligned with you there, Rd. I may not have been willing to accept it from day one, but I did finally accept in about 1 month ago. It seems to be getting easier as time progresses.

[JGuy]

As for my sitch, here's today's update.

This morning, my W came to my room in tears. I was getting dressed, she sat on my bed and just looked at me, sighed. She told me she had a dream about me that was powerful, and that she isn't ready to give up yet. She asked to call off the decision to separate that we had made yesterday. She said that she wants more time to think about it. I didn't really respond yes or no. I reminded her that her unwillingness to be honest and commit to NC was the main blocker for me, and that even then I could never go back to the old M. It would take nothing less than transformative change for both of us. She nodded, but with an overwhelmed look on her face.

She told me that she started reading "The Truth" by Neil Strauss, which is a book by a man who worked though his own waywardness. She said it is really helping her. She has also started listening to "The Smart Couple" podcast that I told her I started listening to a couple weeks ago.

I was kind to her today, and pleased to see that she seems to be making an effort, but I really didn't get my hopes up. I just continued to do my own thing today as I have been for awhile now.

[rd500]

Hi Jguy. I think it's too far a gap for me personally to bridge. I find your term independent thinker condecending in the extreme , what does that mean to you ?

Do you think others are not ? If I was to ask for your advice or support but stopped you and said , your not support or advising me in s way that I like , would you continue to support or advise me ?

If your criticised and you feel it's not right , do you accept that after several people ( independent of each other ) reach the same conclusion that maybe there could be some validity in it or do you ignore it because you KNOW its wrong ?

You were told on page one your W was lying but you knew that you had a higher love and we were wrong. No pleasure in it but who was right ?

You didn't trust yourself when you were younger , fair enough, that doesn't mean you are right all the time now No one is

I did point out you are controlling and every post you've made confirms it even yesterday's M/C where you told her as you left that SHE could change this but won't. !!!!! Controlling ?

I value my opinion when it comes to a lot of things however I accept that in lots of things I'm not qualified to have an opinion that I would push on others I can still have my opinion but not an informed one because I have no experience to call on

Your posts read very immature , if some posts something you like , they are great and thanks but if they post something you don't then you react as if it was a personal attack and they are against you No one on here is against you , you don't get much support and do you not ask yourself why ? If your insecurities are such that you struggle with comments that aren't favourable , work on that with an I/C. Read Ghosts thread , he ignores everyone's advice as well but the man is trying to get it and has numerous posts daily. Is he an independent thinker because he doesn't accept our advice ? Or is he struggling with a situation that he has no experience with and listens to the advice regardless of how it's worded. He may not take the advice but he's grateful for it.

You don't strike me as stupid but I do wonder if you can't get past your own opinion of yourself enough to see how you come accross Vanillia pointed it out gently as that's who she is Zues spoke to you in a more direct and adult manner and maybe I was harsh because I deal with lots of people everyday and don't suffer people when they won't listen to very. basic advice

You are contolling , read your posts of how if only W would do this or if only W made the effort , where's the post of Jguy looking at himself You point to your birth and how can you change that , you can't but you can change who you are

Your searching everywhere for the answer. Maybe look closer to home. I asked you about the shamans advice and how it contradicted with your own assessment of lack of empathy and you didn't answer , why ? It's a complete contradiction but you accepted the shamans advice without challenge Was it because the advice blamed you for being too giving and that's not such a bad trait as being controlling ?

Jguy. I want to be posting support for how your dealing with your own issues in a positive manner , I want to be advising you to give W time to sort out her own feelings and telling you to not have R talks because she's not ready and even if she had a miraculous awakening , Jguy needs to sort out his issues before a healthy R could be started

However I feel until you accept that you control only you the cycle will continue and whatever R you find yourself in , you will struggle

Positive thoughts Jguy and maybe you are right and we are wrong


Take care. Rd