Thanks Melweb and Trumpet. Well, it went ok. Mostly giving the background. She seemed to get it and thinks (from what I said, not trying to diagnose) he may be bipolar. It ended with her saying I should write out pros & cons of both staying and divorcing. But understanding that he may not change, which echos what many of you have said. It made me think again about that possibility...I hate that it's even an option and that I'm considering it. It shouldn't be. But it is. I think for me, it comes down to 2 things: Did he really have a PA? (never confirmed or denied) Is he capable of apologizing, at some point for that? For all of this, but especially that? Maybe I'll work on my list and start that as my new thread. Maybe I can get with the DB coach on Friday. Maybe, maybe, maybe.
Me: 42, H: 38 Married: 12 years (second M for me) 14D, 9D 2015 EA (PA??), porn addict, *pastor/counselor* MLC
At a counselor, he said he wanted the marriage but not to work on himself w/a IC. Piecing?
Thanks ya'll. I tend to lean toward what you're saying V about forgiveness. There was a discussion on this at gr8 thread some time ago. I will see if I can find the link.
Mostly we hear over & over that we NEED to forgive, and there's plenty of truth to that.
There are a number of books on this my favourite is by Jeanne Safer Forgive or not Forgive?
‘To err is human, to forgive is divine’ a well known saying it's not my job to judge or forgive. It is the higher power and otherwise I become too big for my boots.
The following is from Maria Shriver:
I’ve been struggling with the apology-forgiveness scenario and trying to figure out what to do you do when you feel an apology isn’t genuine. What do you do when the apology doesn’t feel substantial enough to cover the hurt or betrayal? Do I still have a duty or responsibility to forgive?
I recognize the parallel between my personal struggle with forgiveness and the struggle on a global level, so I headed to the library to see what had been written from various viewpoints. I was referred to a book that gave me the answers I needed.
The Sunflower: On the Possibilities and Limits of Forgiveness by Simon Wiesenthal is a classic text in forgiveness. Wiesenthal was a prisoner in a concentration camp when a dying Nazi called Wiesenthal to his bedside and asked him for forgiveness for his crimes. Wiesenthal was dumb-founded and left the room without saying anything.
Thirty years later, he wrote this book about his experience. In the book, he also poses a simple question to theologians from around the world including the Dalai Lama and Archbishop Desmond Tutu. He asks them, “What would you have done?” It is eye-opening to see the various perspectives and insights about forgiveness.
After finishing the book, I asked myself the same question: Can I forgive? My answer is yes, absolutely, but it is no longer an automatic response. In my healing, I have recognized my power with forgiveness.
I have stopped saying ‘It’s ok’ and instead say ‘thank you for apologizing’.
I have stopped beating myself up for not immediately being able to forgive someone who has not apologized or taken any accountability for the wrongdoing to me.
I have found freedom in eventually letting go – forgiving in my own time – without carrying a grudge or hoping for some karmic boulder to come the person’s way.
What did you mean about shame & guilt as models of greatness?
I mean that when we let go of our own shame (of who we are) and guilt (for our actions) which make us targets then we leave behind the need to have either revenge or justice and we lose the resentment for the sins of others. We can let the higher power forgive or provide redemption to those that do harm, we can leave criminal justice systems to do their work. We let go of our concern to control another's destiny and their awareness of their actions. We let others live their lives and let what happens to them unfold in time. We let them decide to atone for themselves. We let their conscience prick or not. We let them be and we play in our own sandpit.
And what do the 'deluded impoverished souls' need - compassion?
Sometimes others are in a reality of their own making, deluded about the truth of their lives, living emotionally and spiritually unhealthy existenses, not listening to their higher power living empoverished lives and that is their choice of life. That life can be full of distractions, compulsions and addictions. It can be destructive to themselves and that is their choice for themselves.
We can offer compassion and understanding because often there are causes for the behaviour and when such behaviour damages them. We intervene when this hurts those who are vulnerable and do not interfere when it is the deluded soul who harms themselves. We get out of the way and allow reality to bite in its own time. They are allowed a life of quiet desperation if they chose it, and offer compassion when the consequences bite.
We acknowledge their request for forgiveness and show compassion. We let our higher power chose to forgive if that is its choice.
Just wanted to be sure I understood you.
Should be seeing the IC today. Not even sure how I want to tackle that... is it to sort out my own feelings or how to deal w/this crap (mostly what I think I should do w/the DB coach) or just how to communicate...ugh.
Concentrate on you and your feelings. In essence you can only deal with that which is your own. Your WH is responsible for his own demons. Let him own them for himself. You have no say in that anyway.
-------------------------------
I hope I have explained my stance. I have not forgiven my WH for his abuse and he hasn't asked. I have no resentment or blame. I am sad for him, I have compassion (well a little). The higher power can do as it will, karma can have an effect or not, WH can be ashamed or guilty or both or neither. I have no shame about being abused, I am a thriver, it is part of my story. I have no guilt about anything I did that allowed the abuse or for my reaction. I believe I have atoned as much as I can, if more arises then I will handle it. I let my higher power in to do this and it did. I had help from this board, my Gamanon mentor, my IC, training, friends, family and many more. They offered me compassion, it is humbling to be the recipient of these gifts. I know that I have been forgiven by the higher power and that I searched for forgiveness if I have to atone for more than I pray to be equal to the challenge.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Thanks V. With hurt/betrayal, no apology, nor action can ever make up for it. Humans are not capable of atoning for their own actions behaviors - it can never be enough. Never. That's why Jesus Christ had to do it for us. I also don't want to deny my own failings. No, they didn't *cause* his choices, but they didn't help and my continuing them doesn't help now either. I'm confused as to how to show compassion to someone who rejects it anyway, but still desperately cries for it. "In sickness and in health" haunts me. Not that I can "fix" him but I cannot deal with it either.
Me: 42, H: 38 Married: 12 years (second M for me) 14D, 9D 2015 EA (PA??), porn addict, *pastor/counselor* MLC
At a counselor, he said he wanted the marriage but not to work on himself w/a IC. Piecing?
