Here again after 9 years and struggling 3

[inpain]

Oh and forgot to add that "best for his kids" wasn't suggesting he is being a bad dad, just that I truly, whole heartedly believe that unless a S is physically beating his/her S and kids then children are better off having their parents together under one roof. I really do not think that all this swapping between each parent's home several times a week is good. If someone asked me if I would want to swap homes every few days I know what my answer would be...it would be a resounding "NO!" and I'm sure that children feel the same - they just don't get given the choice!

[Gmum]

I was a 50/50 kid. My parents got a long well and lived close together and I still hated it. My mom today admits that it's for the benefit of the parents, not the children to do it that way.
I'm sure there are lots of people who do this and it works really well for them. I'm just not one of them.

[inpain]

Hey IP. It's hard to be in these situations. We have been so hurt that we have reason to be angry. It just doesn't help us get what we want, and it doesn't make us feel any better.

When I read your posts I see an awful lot of judgment and criticism. For example, your summary of what's going on is an actual bullet point list of where your H isn't behaving how you want him to:

I'm afraid I don't think I entirely agree with this point Zues (sorry). It was just a summary of what he has done so far because that is the viewpoint I have. Only he could give the situation from the point of view of what I've done the last 11 weeks. Also, I do think that if I came on here and posted that I intended to spend £1000s that we don't have, behind my H's back, on my dream kitchen while I still have H's money coming in, because "that'll teach him!" I think you'd soon be on my H's side thinking that I was an awful money grabbing W trying to sponge every penny off him before he divorces me. That is what he has done by buying this bike. In a M you don't just go and spend £1000s without it being a joint decision and we are not D yet so I firmly believe he shouldn't have done it.

{quote=Zues126]

Yes, they don't believe in this DBing stuff as the way they see it, it is just a license for H to behave however badly he wants with no consequences. I have to admit, it is seeming that that is how it is at the moment.

Do you understand that critical, controlling, judgmental, resentful, and punishing isn't helpful?[/quote] Yes, I can see that it isn't helpful, although I do think it is understable when someone is in this kind of awful situation that is out of their control.

[quote=inpain]
a) we were arguing a lot about how he treats S11, criticizing his parenting?

No, not exactly. I have tried over and over to gently help him with his parenting. He isn't great at parenting, and that is not just me who thinks so. I could tell you many things he does and you would be appalled judging from what I've read about how wonderful you are with your children. My family and friends have all commented on the things he does and that they are not good. He himself admits he is too harsh but has no intention of changing or doing anything about it.

b) I have, up until probably the last year before he moved out, been resistent to his hugs etc, because he has done nothing punishing/controlling?

Possibly this can be seen like this, but if that is what it is it was not done consciously by me. In order for me to feel 'safe' again in this area I needed reassurances from him. He didn't give them.

Did you read my card game post to Pyrite? About how behavior affects each other and interferes with accountability?

No, I haven't but I'll check it out!

I think you feel like giving up because you are realizing you can't control H, and if that's the case then you don't want him. If H came back, and assuming that he broke off any EA, would you be willing to accept and love him the way he is? Or would your love be contingent upon him feeling and acting the way you want him to?

I don't feel like giving up, I just think I should be protecting myself financially.

Sounds to me like he struggled in the relationship with you. I would guess he felt judged, criticized, controlled, and attacked a lot. This also means he felt unappreciated, unloved, misunderstood, rejected, neglected, and diminished. He met a woman that made him feel totally different. That admired him the way he was, made him feel important, liked the way he was instead of the image of how they thought he ought to be. Like a man dying of thirst he started to drink from that water...but his LOVE for you kept him from divorcing you, or going further...so he tried to end it and come back to his wife, to be faced with what? Further rejection, criticism, and punishment? So he finally gave up because he couldn't live like that anymore...

You're probably right with your guess. Although what you describe above happened AFTER his first dalliance with this OW. His first dalliance with her was because I had PND.

I don't agree with his choices. And no matter what, they are his choices. But I can't say I agree with yours either. And I don't think he or many men want to be in a relationship like this.

No, you're right, I'm sure they don't, and neither do I. I don't want to be in a relationship where I can't trust my H because he doesn't tell the truth and thinks it's OK to meet up with OW for coffee and whatever else.

What can you do to become a woman only a fool would leave? I think you need to change the topics of your posts away from H's behavior, and start exploring your role in your relationship, where it comes from, and what you can do to loosen up the death grip a bit.

I think it comes from complete and utter insecurity because of the constant bombshells that have dripped into my marriage over several years, but maybe I'm not looking deeply enough? I don't know.

[inpain]

I was a 50/50 kid. My parents got a long well and lived close together and I still hated it. My mom today admits that it's for the benefit of the parents, not the children to do it that way.
I'm sure there are lots of people who do this and it works really well for them. I'm just not one of them.

I'm so sorry to hear that Gmum and I can totally understand you hating it. I know I would too and that is why I don't want it for my children. I think it is completely selfish of adults to do this to their children (no offence to your parents or anyone else). As I said, now as an adult I wouldn't want to live in two different houses and live out of a suitcase all my life and I don't want it for my children. It breaks my heart.

[Zues126]

No worries if we're on different pages. Take what helps.

I think it comes from complete and utter insecurity because of the constant bombshells that have dripped into my marriage over several years, but maybe I'm not looking deeply enough? I don't know.

I've already shared my thoughts so I will keep this post short (except for the quote), but I do find it interesting that even in your own introspection about your controlling and critical behavior, you feel it is because of your H's shortcomings. Hmm.

This is the card game I put together for my old buddy Pyrite:

Quote:
I read your post this morning but had to work all day and then had kid time tonight, this was my first chance to get back to you. I really want to share a model that I think will help you out.

There were two people, you and your W. Let's pretend there's a game being played. You have 10 cards you can choose from, A low, 10 high. Each time either of you interact with each other you have to decide to play a card symbolizing how you treat each other. A 10 means you choose to be extremely loving, selfless, generous, noble, and operate from your highest spiritual self. A 5 means you're having an average day, you're on auto pilot, you may do some things for your mate but aren't really engaged. A 3 is negative, critical, impatient. Below that is the red zone where it becomes destructive, controlling, and potentially abusive.

In the beginning each of you plays a 10 card. You both feel good about the love you're feeling, and feel good about the love you're getting. Somehow that's hard to maintain with life getting in the way. Eventually you notice the cards she's playing are 5s and 6s. This is frustrating. You came to really like 10s. In fact, when she was playing 10 cards you felt really good. When she plays 5s and 6s you feel dissatisfied. You get frustrated that she won't play the 10s like she used to.

Disappointment leads to frustration. Frustration leads to hurt. Hurt leads to anger. Anger that isn't addressed builds into resentment. Next thing you know, you don't feel loving. You don't feel like playing 10s much either. In fact, you start to resent even having to play 5s and 6s yourself. It's not fair! Why should she get everything she wants and needs and for her to neglect you with a series of 5s? You can't be happy with 5s, and you would be with 10s, so really it's her failure to do her job that is the cause for your unhappiness. You start to play lower and lower cards. Partly because you are so resentful you can't stand the thought of giving her what she wants while you're not getting what you want. Partly to try to "get her attention", or show her that something is wrong. And partly because you just don't have the loving feelings that generate bigger loving numbers.

You NEED big numbers to be happy. She's failing. You must force her to play bigger numbers. There's only one strategy left. Time to play some 2s and A's. Put the hammer down. Make it clear this is unacceptable. Either you give me what I want and deserve or I will make things absolutely unbearable. Verbal abuse. Withholding affection. Critical comments. Bullying. Whatever.

***OK, STOP THE GAME A MINUTE***

I described how it felt to play this game. If someone asked "what type of guy are you, are you the kind of guy that plays A's or 10's or what?", you'd respond "I'm a GREAT guy, I'll play 10s or at least pretty big cards most of the time". If someone asked "why did you play so many A's and 2's the last couple of years? That looked borderline abusive", you'd reply "WHOA! That's NOT ME. That's not who I am! I only played those cards because SHE left me no choice! She was playing 3's and 4's and not loving me the way I need to be loved! If she had done HER JOB right I would've been HAPPY to respond with 7s, 9s, and a 10 now and then!"

So the whole issue in your mind was the way she treated you, and how it caused you to respond. You don't identify with you behavior because you see it as a reflection of her failure.

BUT THERE ARE SOME TRUTHS
-YOU ARE THE CARDS YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY. If you play A's and 2's, you are abusive. Doesn't matter why. If you kill someone you're a murderer. If you rob a bank you're a bank robber. And when you choose to treat someone poorly, then you are a BAD H. PERIOD.

-IT'S NOT HER JOB TO PLAY 10S AND MAKE YOU HAPPY. Yes, 10s feel great. It's a nice treat in life to experience. But that's not life. Life isn't a series of sexual adventures, passionate date nights, back rubs, and sharing poetry. Why? I don't know. We build a tolerance to things and quickly expect them and take them for granted. Heck, even if she kept playing 10s they would start to feel like 7s to you quickly as you got used to it. Eventually people get to a level they can maintain (such as 5s through 8s with an occasional 10) and it starts to feel like a disappointment. AND IF YOU USED THE 10S TO MAKE YOURSELF FEEL GOOD ABOUT YOUR LIFE YOU WILL SUDDENLY FEEL DISCONTENT AND FEEL YOUR PARTNER IS TO BLAME. SHE'S NOT. You have to be happy on your own, and take what you get as a bonus.

-ONLY YOU GET TO DECIDE WHAT CARDS YOU PLAY. It doesn't matter if she plays 10s or 1s. *YOU* decide each day what type of person you are, how you want to respond. It's YOUR choice, not hers. She can play a 3 and you can STILL CHOOSE to respond with a 10.

CONCLUSION-

So, the funny part about all of this is that SHE FEELS THE SAME WAY. She thinks you didn't play the cards she needed to feel happy. She excuses all of her poor behavior as the "natural" reaction to being treated so poorly from you. She thinks what you did is far worse. This extends all the way to the "cheating". In her mind she would've never cheated had you not emotionally abused her for years, and it was only because of your actions that she was forced to take refuge in someone else to preserve herself. Then she remembered what a 10 felt like and decided that you were just an Ahole that played 1s-3s, and she can't have that in her life, and she found someone that plays 10s, so see ya later.

Now you're not playing the game anymore. There's no more interaction. SO YOU'RE NOT DEALING WITH THE DIFFICULTY OF BEING DISAPPOINTED OR RESENTFUL. You start to find it easier to act like a fine and upstanding citizen. This further proves to you that it must've been her driving you crazy. WRONG. It's easier to conduct yourself well on your own. You're not better! If you were in a relationship again tomorrow you'd be back on the downward spiral again, and you'd be dropping 2's and A's on people in a controlling way until they left you as well. Why? Because you haven't learned another way yet!

For you to judge her on the cards she was playing and excuse your cards because they were the only possible reaction is not going to get you anywhere.

Step one is acknowledging the truths above, taking ownership for your behavior REGARDLESS of the context, and deciding what type of man you want to be. Step two is forgiving her for the cards she's played because now you see how she's done nothing you haven't also done. Step three is learning how to take responsibility for your own happiness so you don't resent your future partner for not being able to chemically maintain euphoria in your life. And step four is learning coping mechanisms so that you are able to maintain responses between 5-10 even when you feel hurt, threatened, or rejected.

When you reach that point where you can be truly ok without a woman's love to make you feel ok, then you can be free to choose to respond lovingly much more often. Oh, and that cheater that just dumped you? Maybe if you had the strength before to treat her differently she would've responded differently. That's the whole DB/DR idea- control your half of the dance and you'd be surprised at what you see in exchange. Of course, it will never be all 10s, that's why you have to grow a bit first. And if you do, people will take notice and you'll be ready for a truly successful M. Who knows...maybe she'll even notice...maybe she'll learn these things on her own after her fling dies down...you can't control that, but if YOU can't learn it how can you expect her to? I say lead by example and act with the character you wish she was utilizing. Maybe if you become the spiritual leader and walk this path she'll notice, and maybe follow suit. If not, you'll know you did your best to save the M, and more importantly you'll need an M to make you happy LESS, and be prepared to have a happy M MORE.
_________________________

[inpain]

WOW! This is a great explanation Zues, and exactly what has happened in my M.

It leaves me feeling that there really isn't any hope for my M, as H has already told me, I blew it a long time ago by treating him how I did. I felt I had my reasons, and as your 'card game' has shown, he felt he had his too.

Not really sure where this leaves me. I really don't think I would be like this with anyone else because I wasn't like it before and this is my 2nd M. My first one ended after a very short time because he was violent towards me and spent most nights out pretending to work but actually out on the town with several other women. I would and did do anything for my current WAH, I adored him and felt so lucky to have him in my life after my disastrous 1st M. He was the guy who would never hurt me (his words).

Obviously I have a lot of work to do on myself but I do not think it will save my M. Or, does your card game mean that I should now be playing 10s to my H in an effort to show how loving I can be even in the face of nothing in return?

[Zues126]

Here was my post to Kyrie about a mission statement.

Basically you do some soul searching about what your 180s should be, and what you are at your best self without the anger and resentment and fear and neediness- who does that person look like? Then you write it out, think about it, and use that as your guiding force when interacting, responding to texts, and especially when making decisions! So you shouldn't be playing 10s in the sense of a WIFE, but you should be playing your idea of a 10 for a good woman co-parenting with a hurting partner.

If you read my post on my thread you'll see I write a lot. Back in 2011 I actually wrote out the doubts and fears I had, then wrote out my responses to them so I could combat those thoughts when they hit. I do something similar in this mission statement below, it's a way to prepare for your feelings without letting them force you off the path you want to be on.

You don't want to tell him F off and let's get divorced, that's not what you want. You don't want to tell him you'll put up with this indefinitely, that's not what you want either. You don't want to spend time and mental energy trying everything under the sun hoping that some day he treats you like a human being, because you can't win that game. And you don't want to get cold and withdraw and use this to justify being resentful and distant because that's not the person you want to be and that won't help either.

Wow. I can see why you feel like you're out of options.

What I try to do is break this down into two parts:

1. What do you want to say?
2. How do you communicate this without saying it (actions not words)?

I think you're still struggling to figure out what you want to say. If you can't figure what you're trying to communicate, then you will be coming across as very inconsistent, and you will be very conflicted as you continue to wrestle with the same things. That's why I'm a believer in a mission statement, something you can use to guide all of your actions and responses.

For example, if your mission statement was this: I am not prepared to get divorced, or give up on my H or my marriage, but nor am I prepared to play a game I can't win, and I'm not going to be resentful and withdrawn...so my missionis to figure out in my mind what I feel a good wife would do for her husband, and I will do my best to do that without expectation of any positive responses...I will sort my feelings out in ways that doesn't impact my commitments to my H...with the only exception being that I will have clear boundaries that when he crosses I will withdraw from TEMPORARILY, then proceed to be loving again in our next interaction...and I will work with IC to sift for the grain of truth behind his spew and help process the pain of my unmet needs, help clarify those boundaries, and help with personal growth and other goals that will allow me to enjoy the rest of my life.

That's a lot of words, but it's a complicated situation. But from that perspective, when he spews via text you can say to yourself "ok, that hurts, I can't win this game. OK, that's fine. I knew I can't, I need to take a deep breath, let go of my expectations, and have a moment of silence for my unmet needs. Now then, does this cross a specific boundary I set? If so, I will need to communicate that and terminate this exchange. I will continue to do what I believe a good wife should, and our next exchange we can start fresh. If he didn't violate a clear boundary then I will put the emotional pain on a shelf for a minute, respond in a way that *I* feel good about, and pat myself on the back since he isn't about to. Then I will take a moment after it all to sit with my hurt, validate my own feelings, and make some mental notes for my next IC to understand where I can grow."

Your brain will keep wanting to go to 'what happens if I do all of this and nothing changes, can I put up with this forever, can I really live my entire life like this', etc, etc. You just have to let that go and find joy in being a strong woman in a tough spot. It won't be like this forever. Have faith.

[Zues126]

It leaves me feeling that there really isn't any hope for my M, as H has already told me, I blew it a long time ago by treating him how I did. I felt I had my reasons, and as your 'card game' has shown, he felt he had his too.

First of all, believe none of what he says and have of what he does.

But, for your 180s...think back to how your low numbers were reflected. This should tell you where to start looking.

[Irish M]

I think it is completely selfish of adults to do this to their children (no offence to your parents or anyone else). As I said, now as an adult I wouldn't want to live in two different houses and live out of a suitcase all my life and I don't want it for my children. It breaks my heart.

Hi Inpain, I agree with you. I have some single parent friends or mixed marriages where the kids hate each other and resent the new boyfriend or girlfriend of their parent. Some even have the nerve to say life is good, they brag that they don't see their kids one week out of 2 and they have freedom. Freedom to do what they want. No family values or care for what these children have to go through. I am not one of those people. My W wasn't either. This current copy with

added note... thanks for the drop in on my situation. You give me strength in your words and you even shared some wisdom you picked up here. Made me smile. You are doing great.

It leaves me feeling that there really isn't any hope for my M, as H has already told me, I blew it a long time ago by treating him how I did. I felt I had my reasons,

Don't think about if you blew it long ago. What happened happened. You can't change the past and you acted the way you did because that is how you felt at that time. I regret not seeing this coming. 2nd time as well for me. As I look back, all the signs were there. Remember this is MLC. It was going to happen anyway. It would of happened if he was with another woman and she would be here writing this instead of you. They were programmed to do this.

Don't believe a word of what he says now, he is projecting onto you his thoughts about himself. All the never loved you, wasted so many years, you weren't there for me are all just him justifying his actions.

What you do with your future relationship with your H is up to you.

remember this phrase.. "sorry you feel that way" whenever he says something hurtful or negative about your relationship of the past. I used it often. I enjoyed saying it because it gave me power and shut the subject down.

Hugs to you
Irish

[inpain]

First of all, believe none of what he says and have of what he does.

Well, the first part shouldn't be too difficult as all he does is make small talk these days! Don't feel like he is ever going to bring up any of the things that need discussing if he wants to D me, such as finances and children!

But, for your 180s...think back to how your low numbers were reflected. This should tell you where to start looking.

OK, I admit this confuses me. How does seeing how he reacted to my low numbers tell me where to start?