Here again after 9 years and struggling 3

[inpain]

I have been doing a lot of thinking about what to do and where to go next with my situation over the last few days and just seem to end up more confused as to what my goals and 180s should be.

Basic current situation in a nutshell is this:

* H moved out 11 weeks ago. He is living on the same street, so only a short walk from our home.

* He chooses as and when to come round and how long to stay. He has let the children down a lot, telling them he will be coming and then not showing up - doesn't even call or text to say he's no longer coming.

* When he comes round it is like nothing has changed - he treats me the same and starts all the conversations as I am only speaking when spoken to in an effort to be 'dark'. He has cooked meals and had meals I've cooked. (I wonder if this should stop?)

* Finances are still running the same as before he moved out - joint accounts etc. This is worrying me!

* He has started a Facebook page that he doesn't know I know about. He originally had his relationship status as 'single', now it has changed to 'it's complicated'.

* I have discovered he has bought a motorbike since he left. Again, he doesn't know that I know this. I have no idea how much this has cost out of our joint finances!

* He has also taken out a credit card - he doesn't know that I know this either.

So, my thoughts and queries are this:

1. Should I make myself scarce when he is in our home? Bearing in mind this would be a lot! For example, this week I would have had to make myself scarce 3 full evenings! OR Should I be setting some boundaries as to how often and how long he can come round for?

2. Should I let him know that I know he's bought a motorbike and ask how much he has spent. After all, I'm assuming this will be an asset that has to be taken into account that he is hiding behind my back! If so - how!?!?

3. Should I ask that we now meet to discuss splitting our finances/access to the kids in view of the above secret purchase and taking out credit cards? Who knows what else he is doing financially behind my back!

4. What DBing techniques should I be using now? It is hard to go dark when he is here all the time and seems to expect that I just welcome him in with open arms and treat him as though there is nothing wrong! I don't initiate conversations or texts, but that is as much as I'm really doing. Oh, and I'm making sure I look great all the time.

My Dad thinks I should now be giving an ultimatum, though obviously he hasn't read DR. He thinks I should say something along the lines of:

"Either we discuss finances/access to children etc now and you start the ball rolling with formal separation/divorce, or, you come back for 6 months to work on M with counselling and if, after those 6 months nothing has changed, that will be it."

My Mum thinks I'm crazy to want him back after everything he has done and also because of how he is with our S.

And I'm just totally confused!

[Rouky]

If he doesn't leave far from you, can he not come and collect kids and bring them back or you drop them back and pick them up?

If not possible, could you stay in your bedroom and read a good book?

If you tell him you know about FB, the motorbike, that wouldn't be detaching. Personally I'd say nothing.

For the finances as it's a joint account you must be able to have access to the bank statement and see what has been done with it. At the moment, I'll say don't rock the boat.

I know it's hard and it's daily new. Nearly a year for me but I'm glad I didn't push financially as I'm better off at the moment and he isn't challenging. Going dark is doing me a world of good, and I don't think about STBXH as much as 2 weeks ago!

Sending you loads of hugs ((((((((((IP))))))))))

[Zues126]

Lot to reply to so this is going to be rough, not going to be doing much proof reading.

Good job on GAL. Doesn't matter that it doesn't make everything permanently better and is only temporary relief. There is no magic pill that's going to make the loss of your family ok. That would be absurd. Consider this like physical therapy to recover after an accident. What it really does is provide outlets for oyu to find some joy and emotional support in your life. You are rebuilding a new infrastructure in which you get what you need. As you get what you need the pain decreases and you won't need H. You will want your family, but you won't depend on him and can detach.

180s- why did H say he couldn't live with you? What was your role in the breakdown of the M? While WAS's spew a lot and we have to sift out a lot of their narrative, there is also a lot of truths to be found. Ultimately your changes do have to be for you, but the motivation to save your marriage can be a powerful catalyst so it's crucial that you think about this. Again, I could go back several posts to find this, but I shouldn't have to. Why did H leave?

Your questions-

1. No. This is good. He wants to see you. He is having positive interactions. I agree that it's ok to be a little scarce sometimes, to leave him wanting more. I like the 80% rule. Reciprocate about 80% of the good will he is showing you.
2. No. IP, please don't mention the motor bike again. STFU about this. Suppose you had a friend that was tweaked because her husband bought a $40 watch. Wouldn't that be odd? Well, to me, your family is on the brink and your H is hurting like he's never hurt before. Busting his balls about money is not going to bring you closer to your goal. He's an adult. Yes, they are joint finances. I'll address this below.
3. No. Don't make it worse. Do you want a divorce? Why would taking steps towards divorce help? Separating finances, keeping him out of your house and having visiting hours...if you want a divorce then do it, but if you want a marriage why don't you just chill?

Your mom and dad are both horribly, horribly, horribly wrong. They love you and don't want to see you hurt. AND they are only seeing through your lens, which right now is $hit-tinted.

IP, most posters would kill to have what you have. An H that is spending a ton of time with you, showing love through acts of service, not flaunting affairs and drinking to oblivion, not bringing other women around the kids.

Many men leave for a day or a month when things boil over. I look at it like counting to 10 when you are too angry to continue the conversation. He was in so much pain he had to walk. You can either try to understand why and own and change your part of it, or you can absolutely crucify him.

I have read many posts you come across as more angry and controlling that most posters and you have more reason to be appreciative. This does not mean your feelings aren't valid, but it should be a wake up call to you.

My gut tells me that you really need your H. You don't just love him, you NEED him. And you need him the way you need him. I would bet that because of that you were extremely controlling in the relationship. Schedules, finances, ultimatums, all controlling. You seem to get angry when he doesn't do what you think he ought to, and you are very critical of him. Men are simple...appreciation/admiration = love, criticism/rejection = poison. By showing criticism/rejection in an effort to control him and get what you need, you fed your dog (men are like dogs) poisoned dog food. Now he's sick from it, and he's throwing up in the back yard, and you're yelling at him for making a mess.

Stop poisoning your dog. Let him heal. Then, if he loves you enough to come around again after this crap, treat him right. The only way you can do this is if you lose the control/anger thing, so your 180s/goals should be to figure out where this is coming from and get it handled. Otherwise if he comes back I'm afraid he will leave for good in about 18 months.

Oh, and I'll say it again. You can blow things out of proportion to justify controlling behavior (i.e., well, if he spends all of our money, puts us in bankruptcy, if he is dating someone else and still expects to come around, I can't live like this forever, etc) but these are all extremes, and those are distorted thinking. You won't live like this forever. Zues promises this won't continue long. Either he'll move farther away or he'll move closer. And either way I'm more worried about what he'll see if he moves closer. So let me ask- other than vows and what YOU need, why should he come home? What does he have to look forward to if he comes home? Is this where you say 'now I've got you you son of a b1tch, now that you want this M back we're going to tell you exactly how much you hurt me, punish you for being a bad boy, and we're going to set up some new rules for you to live by so I never get hurt again...'? Like trying to call a dog that knows it's in trouble and that you're going to beat it? Or are you emotionally prepared to reward him for being a good man, serving him in a way you failed to prior to his walking away, and being a person he'd be a fool to leave?

[annab74]

Zeus...this is great stuff!

Inpain...my situation is very similar to yours, and I too struggle with knowing the right balance. It's been almost 19 months since BD for me and we are one signature away from D being final, but H is "unsure." There has been a lot of back and forth on his part. One minute we're over, but when I go to take steps to move out and move on, he presses pause again and "needs more time." It's very frustrating.

No advice...just wanted say I feel your pain.

[inpain]

Hi Rouky, thank you so much for answering my questions.

If he doesn't leave far from you, can he not come and collect kids and bring them back or you drop them back and pick them up?

If not possible, could you stay in your bedroom and read a good book?

H has no intention of taking the kids round to his Dad's where he is living. It is not a pleasant environment by any means. I could stay upstairs when he comes round. I did this in the beginning so perhaps I will do this again now. Neither staying around or being absent has made any difference so both seem to be cheese less tunnels as far as DBing is concerned.

If you tell him you know about FB, the motorbike, that wouldn't be detaching. Personally I'd say nothing.

I'm not so much bothered about the FB - that is not a big deal, apart from the fact that he listed himself as single, that hurt, but I can let that go. As for the bike, the point with that is, it has cost £1000s! We do not have the money. The only way he has bought this is either a) borrowing from his Dad, b) paying for it with the credit card he has taken out or c) taken out a loan. I really don't feel that this is acceptable for someone who is wanting to divorce. He has told me to get the visa (which is joint spending) paid off so that he can divorce me but then he spends £1000s on a bike behind my back!?!?!

For the finances as it's a joint account you must be able to have access to the bank statement and see what has been done with it. At the moment, I'll say don't rock the boat.

I do have access to all the banking information. He is taking substantial amounts out every 10 days or so, probably to pay off whichever borrowing method he has used to buy the bike.

Going dark is doing me a world of good, and I don't think about STBXH as much as 2 weeks ago!

Sending you loads of hugs ((((((((((IP))))))))))

I wish I could go as dark as you have. It seems impossible with the way H is running the show at the moment. Thank you for the hugs, I really need them!

[inpain]

Thank you so much Annab74! I have read your situation and you're right, there are many similarities. I really admire you for being able to cope for so long!

[inpain]

Hi Zues, thank you again for your very helpful post. I really do appreciate how much your are helping me. I'm glad to hear you think I'm doing a good job of GAL!

180s- why did H say he couldn't live with you? What was your role in the breakdown of the M? Why did H leave?

H left because a) we were arguing a lot about how he treats S11, b) I have, up until probably the last year before he moved out, been resistent to his hugs etc, because he has done nothing to prove that his R with OW wasn't physical and I have had a hard time dealing with it. H has done very little to set right the lack of trust and pain that has come from his EA/PA and constant lies about contact with her over spanning many years, c) He doesn't love me like a wife any more.

1. No. This is good. He wants to see you. He is having positive interactions. I agree that it's ok to be a little scarce sometimes, to leave him wanting more. I like the 80% rule. Reciprocate about 80% of the good will he is showing you.

I really do not think he wants to see me - I am just an unfortunate added extra when he comes round to see the children. As soon as they have been put to bed, in fact, most times as soon as I say they have to get ready for bed, he leaves. He is coming to see them only and I just happen to be here. I do like the 80% idea anyway though, I'll give this a try.

2. No. IP, please don't mention the motor bike again. STFU about this. Suppose you had a friend that was tweaked because her husband bought a $40 watch. Wouldn't that be odd? Well, to me, your family is on the brink and your H is hurting like he's never hurt before. Busting his balls about money is not going to bring you closer to your goal. He's an adult. Yes, they are joint finances. I'll address this below.

Even though he has taken out £1000s of finance to buy it? £1000s of finance that we cannot afford!?!?! This seems odd that it is OK for him to do this even though he wants a divorce. This sort of spending should be done when we are divorced surely. He has repeatedly said that he wants me to hurry up and pay the visa off, that has joint spending on it, so that he can go to a solicitor and start proceedings but then he takes out more finance behind my back!?!?! I really don't see how this is OK.

Your mom and dad are both horribly, horribly, horribly wrong. They love you and don't want to see you hurt. AND they are only seeing through your lens, which right now is $hit-tinted.

Yes, they don't believe in this DBing stuff as the way they see it, it is just a license for H to behave however badly he wants with no consequences. I have to admit, it is seeming that that is how it is at the moment.

I have read many posts you come across as more angry and controlling that most posters and you have more reason to be appreciative. This does not mean your feelings aren't valid, but it should be a wake up call to you.

I do not understand how I am coming across as angry - that is quite worrying!

My gut tells me that you really need your H. You don't just love him, you NEED him. And you need him the way you need him. I would bet that because of that you were extremely controlling in the relationship. Schedules, finances, ultimatums, all controlling. You seem to get angry when he doesn't do what you think he ought to, and you are very critical of him.

Yes and no here. I do need him and love him, you're spot on there. Schedules - no, not controlling there, there really isn't much to control, his shifts are terrible and the kids and I have always done most things on our own. Finances - yes, but by his doing! I have given up asking him to look at our finances with me. He knows I know what I'm doing with it and has always trusted me to pay the bills. He understands little about it and I used to work in finance so he has always just let me do it. Ultimatums - not really sure what you mean by this. If anything, I would say he has been the one giving ultimatums, in that he has constantly said to me since it came to light about his continued contact and poss PA with OW, "Get over it or leave, you know where the door is." Critical of him - yes, I hold my hand up here, and have held my hand up and apologised repeatedly for this to him. I am critical by nature and a perfectionist.

The only way you can do this is if you lose the control/anger thing, so your 180s/goals should be to figure out where this is coming from and get it handled. Otherwise if he comes back I'm afraid he will leave for good in about 18 months.

I think the anger comes from feeling that he has not been a good H to me for a long time. I had PND - he left and began an EA. He then has continued to lie and contact OW since he came back and then done nothing to try to mend the situation and my heartbreak/lack of trust. And then now he says ILYBNILWY!!! After everything he has put me through and hasn't bothered to put right he comes out with that!?!?! Yes, I'm angry about it.

Zues promises this won't continue long. Either he'll move farther away or he'll move closer. And either way I'm more worried about what he'll see if he moves closer. So let me ask- other than vows and what YOU need, why should he come home?

Because I know we could have a great relationship if we both put our minds to it. Because it is best for his kids.

What does he have to look forward to if he comes home? Is this where you say 'now I've got you you son of a b1tch, now that you want this M back we're going to tell you exactly how much you hurt me, punish you for being a bad boy, and we're going to set up some new rules for you to live by so I never get hurt again...'? Like trying to call a dog that knows it's in trouble and that you're going to beat it?

I can see exactly what you're saying here. It doesn't sound good and I don't really know what to say!

Or are you emotionally prepared to reward him for being a good man, serving him in a way you failed to prior to his walking away, and being a person he'd be a fool to leave?

I'm not sure what this would look like either and not really sure what you mean. Thank him for providing for us? Not pushing him away? The past year it has been me asking for affection and he has not been remotely interested until our holiday in August...and that occasion he cannot even remember he says! Not sure how I can be a person he'd be a fool to leave other than what I already do. I look good, I do everything I can to provide us with a lovely, welcoming home, look after our children pretty much single-handedly (even prior to him moving out). Yes, I have not let him buy a motorbike - because we couldn't afford for him too. Gee, I'd love a new kitchen too but...we cannot afford one so I haven't got one!

[Zues126]

Hey IP. It's hard to be in these situations. We have been so hurt that we have reason to be angry. It just doesn't help us get what we want, and it doesn't make us feel any better.

When I read your posts I see an awful lot of judgment and criticism. For example, your summary of what's going on is an actual bullet point list of where your H isn't behaving how you want him to:

Basic current situation in a nutshell is this:

* H moved out 11 weeks ago. He is living on the same street, so only a short walk from our home.

* He chooses as and when to come round and how long to stay. He has let the children down a lot, telling them he will be coming and then not showing up - doesn't even call or text to say he's no longer coming.

* When he comes round it is like nothing has changed - he treats me the same and starts all the conversations as I am only speaking when spoken to in an effort to be 'dark'. He has cooked meals and had meals I've cooked. (I wonder if this should stop?)

* Finances are still running the same as before he moved out - joint accounts etc. This is worrying me!

* He has started a Facebook page that he doesn't know I know about. He originally had his relationship status as 'single', now it has changed to 'it's complicated'.

* I have discovered he has bought a motorbike since he left. Again, he doesn't know that I know this. I have no idea how much this has cost out of our joint finances!

* He has also taken out a credit card - he doesn't know that I know this either.

Judging him for what he is doing:

This seems odd that it is OK for him to do this even though he wants a divorce. This sort of spending should be done when we are divorced surely. He has repeatedly said that he wants me to hurry up and pay the visa off, that has joint spending on it, so that he can go to a solicitor and start proceedings but then he takes out more finance behind my back!?!?! I really don't see how this is OK.

And feeling like you are 'letting him get away' with it.

Yes, they don't believe in this DBing stuff as the way they see it, it is just a license for H to behave however badly he wants with no consequences. I have to admit, it is seeming that that is how it is at the moment.

Do you understand that critical, controlling, judgmental, resentful, and punishing isn't helpful?

Where is all of this coming from?

You really seem to see his behavior as bad, and your own bad behavior as his fault because it's a natural reaction to how horrible of a husband he has been. When I asked you why he left, you really took the focus off your behavior. Look:

a) we were arguing a lot about how he treats S11, criticizing his parenting? b) I have, up until probably the last year before he moved out, been resistent to his hugs etc, because he has done nothing punishing/controlling?to prove that his R with OW wasn't physical and I have had a hard time dealing with it. H has done very little to set right the lack of trust and pain that has come from his EA/PA and constant lies about contact with her over spanning many years, c) He doesn't love me like a wife any more. more judgment/criticism?

Did you read my card game post to Pyrite? About how behavior affects each other and interferes with accountability?

I think you feel like giving up because you are realizing you can't control H, and if that's the case then you don't want him. If H came back, and assuming that he broke off any EA, would you be willing to accept and love him the way he is? Or would your love be contingent upon him feeling and acting the way you want him to?

I think the anger comes from feeling that he has not been a good H to me for a long time. I had PND - he left and began an EA. He then has continued to lie and contact OW since he came back and then done nothing to try to mend the situation and my heartbreak/lack of trust. And then now he says ILYBNILWY!!! After everything he has put me through and hasn't bothered to put right he comes out with that!?!?! Yes, I'm angry about it.

I get it. I'm sorry for your pain. I want you to suffer less in the future and be free to live your life.

Not sure how I can be a person he'd be a fool to leave other than what I already do

Sounds to me like he struggled in the relationship with you. I would guess he felt judged, criticized, controlled, and attacked a lot. This also means he felt unappreciated, unloved, misunderstood, rejected, neglected, and diminished. He met a woman that made him feel totally different. That admired him the way he was, made him feel important, liked the way he was instead of the image of how they thought he ought to be. Like a man dying of thirst he started to drink from that water...but his LOVE for you kept him from divorcing you, or going further...so he tried to end it and come back to his wife, to be faced with what? Further rejection, criticism, and punishment? So he finally gave up because he couldn't live like that anymore...

I don't agree with his choices. And no matter what, they are his choices. But I can't say I agree with yours either. And I don't think he or many men want to be in a relationship like this.

What can you do to become a woman only a fool would leave? I think you need to change the topics of your posts away from H's behavior, and start exploring your role in your relationship, where it comes from, and what you can do to loosen up the death grip a bit.

[Zues126]

Because I know we could have a great relationship if we both put our minds to it. Because it is best for his kids.

even here I see judgment and criticism...if we "both" put our minds to it in this context to me suggests that he hasn't...shame on him...and the "best for HIS kids" suggests he's being a bad dad...shame on him again...

Do you see it?

[inpain]

Because I know we could have a great relationship if we both put our minds to it. Because it is best for his kids.

even here I see judgment and criticism...if we "both" put our minds to it in this context to me suggests that he hasn't...shame on him...and the "best for HIS kids" suggests he's being a bad dad...shame on him again...

Do you see it?

Actually, the "both" bit referred to me! I know that I have not done my share of making things better because of the pain I've been in from his EA/PA. Not excusing myself, but that was the reason. I just felt that he broke the trust so he should be the one to fix it. Not saying that is right but it's how I felt at the time.