Last night

[Vanilla]

My view is that WH is deflecting to take the focus off his own behaviour. That is arriving home at midnight when he is M.

On the basis that attack is the best form of defence. You then put the focus on yourself rather than him. Clever tactic of WH, he will keep using it as long as it works. My answer was eventually ' I don't agree let's leave it at that'. When WH persisted ' I don't want to go to that place at the moment, I need to sleep/eat/make bottom burps/go laugh like a drain." Then broken record with a smile "not now" and "I am too tired/hungry/farty bottomed/headached/etc" and "please stop" and "I have asked you to stop"

Then I recorded the convo.

I like Al Turtle on Boundaries and recommend his paper on it, written mainly I think for teenagers, it's very understandable. Well it was to me, and useful tool to explain to others.

V

[Vanilla]

I suspect WH doesn't believe his own spew, it's just useful to say and possibly allows him to shift his own focus too.

Sandi 37 rules, 100% rubbish in what they say.

"Well really WH" and "we both know the truth on this" after my WH had been out gambling, drinking, smoking and chasing OW.

I really miss my friend edit.

Hugs

V

[Zues126]

Good stuff 25 and Drew.

In every battle there are tactics and strategies. Strategies are big picture, tactics are the small actions that accomplish the larger goal. They gave you some very good tactical tools.

As 25 says, however, this looks like a game you're not going to win today or tomorrow. He will continue to spew no matter what. So 25, to be clear, when you said

(That's my only "objection" to what Zeus wrote; i.e., I don't think your h will hear you out long enough.)

I was referring to what she should be saying to herself. Having her own mission statement, a plan on how she was going to manage through his negative reactions like this:

when he spews via text you can say to yourself "ok, that hurts, I can't win this game. OK, that's fine. I knew I can't, I need to take a deep breath, let go of my expectations, and have a moment of silence for my unmet needs. Now then, does this cross a specific boundary I set? If so, I will need to communicate that and terminate this exchange. I will continue to do what I believe a good wife should, and our next exchange we can start fresh. If he didn't violate a clear boundary then I will put the emotional pain on a shelf for a minute, respond in a way that *I* feel good about, and pat myself on the back since he isn't about to. Then I will take a moment after it all to sit with my hurt, validate my own feelings, and make some mental notes for my next IC to understand where I can grow."

This, or something she comes up with, can give her a game plan so that she feels prepared. Just as you said preparing helps anxiety and allows you to be in the moment, so too does larger picture game planning. If this is the game plan she doesn't have to react, she can instead process things, transcend her emotions while still validating them, and then behaving in a way that is consistent with her beliefs. This consistent behavior is the real win. Not H's reaction. Doing her part despite what H does is being her own person and breaking the cycle.

Then again, that's just how I've tried to handle it.

[kyrie]

There is a thread on here, I believe by Coach, that gives a very good, short summary on Boundaries, but I can't put my fingers on it right now.

If no one can find it, I'll take a shot at summarizing later.

I don't think this is from Coach but it was helpful to me once upon a time.



Think about boundaries like this:
‘
Boundaries are not about controlling the other person, because boundaries are about drawing "circles" around *you* and determining what you will and won't allow inside that circle.

Your wife can do whatever she wants OUTSIDE that circle. You are not telling her what to do.

But you will only let into that circle people who treat you with respect.

She's free to go on treating you with disrespect, but you won't know about it because she'll be outside your circle. She's free to go on and draw her own boundaries of no expectations and no responsibilities, outside your circle.

She can do WHATEVER she wants. She's a free person, free to make WHATEVER choices she wants.

BUT SO ARE YOU, and you are free to choose who to allow within your circle.

That's all. Not about trying to control her at all. Tell her she's totally free. She has the WHOLE WORLD, outside your circle, to go and do whatever she wants.

If she's saying you have to let her into your circle no matter what, then THAT is about HER controlling YOU.
---------------------------

I'll think in more specifics since your h seems to think you are a mind reader and that he's not really responsible for being clear or specific with you.

Here are a few options, but others will probably have better ones.

Maybe you can say "I (sometimes) wish I could read your mind but I can't. So I really need you to be clear with me, so I can communicate with you more effectively.

Or ask him "H, how can I communicate more effectively with you?"

"H, I'm asking you what you need/want.

I don't want to wonder about tone or word use, especially when we are writing to each other. So I'm asking for clarity so there can't be misunderstanding.

I think If we speak clearly then we can know what our choices are and it'll be clear. There won't be any guessing".

Been a busy few days, sorry I'm catching up again. If I did that w/the circle we'd probably not talk again, if ever. He simply does not believe he *needs* to respect me in that way and has stated it. And frankly the circle thing does seem to exclude and prevent a certain amount of intimacy. I get that might be appropriate at certain times/situations.
So that night I did say essentially those things about mind readers. He said he shouldn't have to specify things since I should know by now (I called it - figured he'd say that) but then he said, referring to the OW, since there have been people who HAVE been able to mind read him and know him that way, that's what he wants. That kind of feeling/love.
Barf.

[kyrie]

That is really nasty Kyrie. Really nasty stuff.

You don't want to tell him F off and let's get divorced, that's not what you want. You don't want to tell him you'll put up with this indefinitely, that's not what you want either. You don't want to spend time and mental energy trying everything under the sun hoping that some day he treats you like a human being, because you can't win that game. And you don't want to get cold and withdraw and use this to justify being resentful and distant because that's not the person you want to be and that won't help either.

Wow. I can see why you feel like you're out of options.

What I try to do is break this down into two parts:

1. What do you want to say?
2. How do you communicate this without saying it (actions not words)?

I think you're still struggling to figure out what you want to say. If you can't figure what you're trying to communicate, then you will be coming across as very inconsistent, and you will be very conflicted as you continue to wrestle with the same things. That's why I'm a believer in a mission statement, something you can use to guide all of your actions and responses.

For example, if your mission statement was this: I am not prepared to get divorced, or give up on my H or my marriage, but nor am I prepared to play a game I can't win, and I'm not going to be resentful and withdrawn...so my mission is to figure out in my mind what I feel a good wife would do for her husband, and I will do my best to do that without expectation of any positive responses...I will sort my feelings out in ways that doesn't impact my commitments to my H...with the only exception being that I will have clear boundaries that when he crosses I will withdraw from TEMPORARILY, then proceed to be loving again in our next interaction...and I will work with IC to sift for the grain of truth behind his spew and help process the pain of my unmet needs, help clarify those boundaries, and help with personal growth and other goals that will allow me to enjoy the rest of my life.

That's a lot of words, but it's a complicated situation. But from that perspective, when he spews via text you can say to yourself "ok, that hurts, I can't win this game. OK, that's fine. I knew I can't, I need to take a deep breath, let go of my expectations, and have a moment of silence for my unmet needs. Now then, does this cross a specific boundary I set? If so, I will need to communicate that and terminate this exchange. I will continue to do what I believe a good wife should, and our next exchange we can start fresh. If he didn't violate a clear boundary then I will put the emotional pain on a shelf for a minute, respond in a way that *I* feel good about, and pat myself on the back since he isn't about to. Then I will take a moment after it all to sit with my hurt, validate my own feelings, and make some mental notes for my next IC to understand where I can grow."

Your brain will keep wanting to go to 'what happens if I do all of this and nothing changes, can I put up with this forever, can I really live my entire life like this', etc, etc. You just have to let that go and find joy in being a strong woman in a tough spot. It won't be like this forever. Have faith.

Hi Zues - hope you're well. As always, you get it.
When you say, "Now then, does this cross a specific boundary I set? If so, I will need to communicate that and terminate this exchange." What does that look like/sound like?
Communicating that is the tricky thing & will be seen as controlling, as per usual.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate ya' Zues. That last paragraph is what I hold on to the most.

[kyrie]

PS

Kyrie, I think your fear is that no matter what you do or say, your h will continue to be your biggest critic. That he will Not be a fan of yours, or a teammate or partner or protector or provider...(which are terms most people's use to describe "good husbands.")

IF that ^^ is the case, you still have choices.

I also asked you if you believe you deserve to be happy. You were uncomfortable with the word "Deserve" and felt that was like asking you if you have "earned" it or that it may imply some selfishness on your end.

I sure don't see it that way. But maybe another way of asking you is , do you feel you deserve your h's disappointment/disrespect/criticism?
If so, why?

I really believe You can be the author of your life. You can decide how this chapter goes, and how the next chapters are written. Think about how you'd like them to happen.

Maybe so 25years. Choices - beyond what we've already discussed?

Deserving disappointment, sure. I KNOW I've let him down, disrespected & hurt him. I own that. Disrespect & criticism is another matter.

[kyrie]

My view is that WH is deflecting to take the focus off his own behaviour. That is arriving home at midnight when he is M.

On the basis that attack is the best form of defence. You then put the focus on yourself rather than him. Clever tactic of WH, he will keep using it as long as it works. My answer was eventually ' I don't agree let's leave it at that'. When WH persisted ' I don't want to go to that place at the moment, I need to sleep/eat/make bottom burps/go laugh like a drain." Then broken record with a smile "not now" and "I am too tired/hungry/farty bottomed/headached/etc" and "please stop" and "I have asked you to stop"

Then I recorded the convo.

I like Al Turtle on Boundaries and recommend his paper on it, written mainly I think for teenagers, it's very understandable. Well it was to me, and useful tool to explain to others.

V

Absolutely it's a deflection. Arriving home after midnight - to be fair, he was visiting a fellow pastor. They didn't talk about anything serious - it was just a hanging out thing. Not worried about it - but he expected me to be up and wanting to talk with him apparently. I get up around 6AM every morning for work, so staying up real late isn't something I LIKE to do...but will when it's important or I choose to use that time to connect.
I've tried that but his persistency is great than mine I guess.
Crazy stuff, I know.

[kyrie]

yeah, not reacting is a big hurdle for me...too much like my Dad I guess. But that is my focus. And to try to see through to the "heart message" in it. He does seem to want to open up more sometimes and we get kinda close to that when I can be non-reactive. He's so used to that 'dance' though..last night same kind of thing. I just STFU, validated as best I could and sat there for a while. He told me to just go to bed if I wouldn't talk. So I said, you know, I've realized that I HAVE to not play the blame game and take responsibility for my behaviors, actions & reactions. One way I've learned to not do that is to recognize I have a choice in everything. I may not choose well, or recognize the choice at the time, but it's my choice. I'm choosing to be here.
H: there it is, it's all about what you want.
K: well, I'd like to go to bed too, but for now, I'm choosing to be here.
Then he sat for a long while (typical of him, analyzing). Then he barked that he KNEW I was thinking all kinds of things about him.
Kinda laughable. He had a few drinks by then anyway. But it a reacting to my detachment (I think). Hmmmm.

[ARose]

Kyrie, I don't have anything to add, I think Zues and 25 years are giving you good advice. Just wanted to say hi and I am still following your situation, hoping for some breakthrough for you. Wishing you a good weekend and some peace. Hang in there, Kyrie, you will get through this.

[ATPeace]

Hi I am following your thread also and I can see bits of me and my witch I really wish you well and am thinking about you

Ghost AP