Flight's Thread #2

[sandi2]

I think your WW has administered bad treatment to discourage you, even to prove to you, that the M is over. That is one reason I believe the longer the LBH stalls, the worse she will act. That's what women do!

Some LBH'S will experience this coldness and bad attitude (and worse), and then when he agrees to a divorce, she changes and becomes like his BFF. That's b/c she doesn't have to convince him any longer and they can just be best buddies!

If the H would display an attitude that said, "You know, I've been thinking about us and I've decided you are right. This really isn't working for me, either". The H would see surprise in her, and then she would probably be friendlier and even warmer........and then, she would probably become very curious as to his reasons for wanting to move on and she would start making excuses for more contacts, etc. I have not seen it fail, yet. It's just that the LBH'S are afraid to do it, or else they have waited too long.

The whole idea of remaining friends and keeping the home safe place, etc., just doesn't seem to work in a case of waywardness. The only cases I can recall that were successful in drawing the WW back, were those where the WW believed the LBH was done and no longer attached nor interested in her.

It sparks something deep inside of the woman. It almost lures her to the man who no longer desires her. She has this feeling similar to a challenge to rise in her. That old basic human nature of wanting what is no longer hers to have. It has been removed. She thought she didn't want it, but now she's lost it......and she wants it back.

The board has had hundreds of men who will post how confused they get b/c when they finally give up and leave the WW alone and he starts building a life for himself, she starts to pursue him. . Old human nature........just can't beat it.

The catch is that the LBH has to let her really work hard to get him back again. Too many men want to jump back the first sign of her reaching out to him. The first several times will just be her testing him. If he goes all melty-man, then she loses interest. (Pursuit and Distanting).

[trumpet]

Sandi's post above is has so much truth in it the entire post should be posted in CAPS.

It's scary to think I could completely shut WW down, move on with my life, but when I started to do that, THEN things started to happen.

Sandi - in the case of a wayward who just doesn't want to do the really hard work - comes part of the way, but has always had the men cater to her, before and during the M - how do you see it? The wayward doesn't have the skillset to pursue, for example. Do you do things for the wayward, showing a change, showing love in actions?

[Flight]

I think my situation is somewhat the "exit affair" type. I do see a lot of "innocent" spouses on the board whose main sin was lack of attention or temper. Taking our marriage before the EA as a separate thing, we were both unappy to a degree. She has made the case that things that had built up over years (feelng unresloved about my online cheating from 6 years before, us engaging in swinging briefly, not accepting her for who she is) she was going to leave anyway. She felt controlled and that she had to give in to my needs and lose who she was in the process.

So while she still is rewriting our history, there is enough hurt there that she has at least convinced herself there is no going back. That is why I have been reluctant to push her away firmly. I was hoping to build the connection, but that has only worked in spits and starts and all unravels later on.

She has been very firm and consistent in, "I have put my life on hold waiting for you to catch up. I want to be able to see him. I don't want to hurt you, but you are not the guy for me and I am sure you feel I am not the girl for you. Let's either live together as roommates or separate. I need to know"

When she wavers, it has been, "Yes, I felt that connection and it surprised me. And I thought about it. But staying together when I know it would be just to not upset the apple cart is for the wrong reasons. I don't think I could love you again or ever be intimate"

Then again, those could be how she really feels, but that just like seeing an unexpected connection, it could all change if I do say, "Ok, here is the agreement. Let's sign. When will you be able to leave so I can get my life back?". Hard to say.

Any advice for the situation where the LBH did contribute enough hurt that "hurting" her more by acting completely "done", may push her away for good?

[trumpet]

Flight,

It sounds like you and I might have wives that are working through feelings that we can't control.

Show her you care, but you're willing to just move on. I'm happy to see my wife making small improvements, but the longer she waits for some sort of epiphany, the more I need to work on ME for ME, for the future.

My wife has a hard time talking about emotions. So, lots of similar statements to your W, like 'I've had enough of the crap for 15 years, I want to be happy, I love the OM'. That's something she has to work on for us to reconcile. To her, it's normal to be emotionally cold - she was before the EA started. Does your wife have issues with emotionally connecting with you? Were you cold to her? She obviously contributed to the sitch, but right now, your strength will shine through, like Sandi said. If she's hurting, she wants strength, not a husband begging to talk. So hard, since I want to connect with my wife on what she said was the problem. I'm more convinced those discussions will happen in front of a MC, and not alone, not with me initiating.

[sandi2]

The wayward doesn't have the skillset to pursue, for example. Do you do things for the wayward, showing a change, showing love in actions?

It is really hard for me to accept that a female wouldn't know how to let the man realize she wants him. Listen, I don't know if any woman is as bad as I have been about not pursuing my H. I always told him that it was nature for men to pursue b/c that's how God created the male. He created the woman to be the responder. Actually, women do pursue, especially in this day & time. Traditionally, they weren't quite so bold about it. It was more in the form of flirting, acting helpless, manipulation, or some type of silliness.

To me, I see every little girl with the natural instincts to flirt and (excuse this expression) wrap a man around her little finger. Her first? Her daddy, grandfather, uncles, etc. She learns just how to make him melt at her little smile, her pleas, her pouts, and tears, etc...... and as she gets older, she branches out. (I hope people can see my sense of humor in this and don't make it something it's not.) What I'm trying to say is that men have their ways of pursuing and women have their way. Her way may come in flirtations or giving clues/hints (which most men total miss) but she will do something if no more than smile and look longingly into his eyes. Remember, the sexes are quite different from each other. And I don't just mean in their body parts.

As for men catering to a woman throughout her life? That's really a not-so-good situation. IMO, she becomes spoiled (even those who act sweet), usually self-centered, and a manipulator of men. She may have more male friends than females, b/c the other women see through her. It makes the LBH's job a lot tougher. If her daddy, her past boyfriends, and any other man jumped through hoops of fire to get the princess whatever she wanted......then expect to see her hold on to her sense of entitlement. However, the man who can remove her from her royal throne, will forever have her admiration. Oh, not at first maybe, and she might not let him know for ages, but he'll have it. Although she may act mad at first, she'll want that guy she can't wrap around her little finger so easily. (Notice I said "easily").

[Flight]

Does your wife have issues with emotionally connecting with you? Were you cold to her?

My wife thinks she is a princess. She is very entitled. An affair is the ultimate expression of entitlemet. She also has an unrealistic expectation of marriage. Having only had 2 men in her life (well, 3 now ), she is still believing in soul mates, true love, and fairy tales. In the beginning she was emotionally connected. She can express feelings. But she does put a wall up.

Her problem is how she communicates. She waits until it has built up and then there is rage and contempt. So to a man, it sounds like bitching. She seldom could say, "honey. I am feeling despondent now and need you to do XXX". Rather she would rant about what I wasn't doing. She also doesn't like to have to coddle someone and things they ought to know what to do because if they loved her, they would "just know". She is big on mind-reading. And when she brings one issue up, she brings EVERY issue up.

I was never cold to her, but I hurt her by not accepting her for who she was. If there was something I had a problem with, I would fight her on it and wear her down. She felt like she had to give in to "keep the peace". We were both posessed of strong tastes and opinions. I could have let her "win" more since she has said for me it is all about winning.

So many of our differences and arguments were just the stuff couples argue about. But my worse "bads" were when I not only didn't agree with her, but tried to force her to my way of thinking or showed contempt back to her, "How could anyone believe that nonsense?" I got better as I learned new skills, but the damage was done. Sex also became dirty for her near the end. She used it to control me.

I don't know if in one post I can capture fairly our dynamic. She has a lot of issues because of her upbringing, that entitled attitude, insecurities, etc. I have been hurt before in relationships and was pursuing fun. I thought we were working past some things. The biggest issues were behind us, or so I thought. But the pain for her was too great that each fight caused her to close off more. I know I could talk to much and just verbally wear her down.

We didn't have a strong emotional bond, especially from her point of view, when we got back from a trip and she went back to work and OM was there to hold her hand and say, "there, there"

[RAI]

Tough questions.

My question for you: Does your W truly want out of the M? If she does, then why would you stop her? No amount of coercion or convincing will convince her otherwise. You cannot control her, nor make those decisions for her. It sounds like you realize that already, but fear of the unknown, specifically your future, is preventing you from moving forwards.

I know it is a lot of investment in a new life and that she may not (likely will not) come back. Are you willing and ready to accept that? You are stuck right now. Afraid to move forward and risk her leaving, afraid to stay where you are and further erode her respect for you.

So do I let her go and encourage her to sign papers and put the for sale sign in the yard and see what happens?

You are still in that phase where you make a move and monitor her reaction to "see what happens". You have to start doing things for your own betterment and stop caring what her reaction will be. Basically, detach. It is easier said than done - I am not there yet either. If you let her go and sign the papers, you should do it for yourself, because it is the right thing to do, and NOT to see what her reaction will be.

That bridge would be burned too.

No one's life goes as they expect it to go. Perhaps the bridge to which you are referring is an illusion and was never there in the first place.

No one wants to be in this sitch. I am sorry you are grappling with such awful choices.

RAI

[J5K]

Flight,

My W is very much the same way and I am much like you.

I have not been able to confirm whether my W has an OM but I am fairly certain she does. I have custody of my boys while she has fled back to her parents in another city. Difficult for me to show change. Continue to do what is right for you that is the best path to take.

[sandi2]

When she wavers, it has been, "Yes, I felt that connection and it surprised me. And I thought about it. But staying together when I know it would be just to not upset the apple cart is for the wrong reasons. I don't think I could love you again or ever be intimate"

When she wavers? You said she's been firm and consistent. I'm sorry, but I don't see this as working through feelings.

Tell me, b/c I would really like to know, why a man wants to remain with a woman who tells him she no longer loves and can't see herself ever being intimate with him again? Do you not believe her? Do you think you know her real feelings better than she knows herself? Do you think you can persuade her to stay in the M and that she'll change her mind?

I believe if more LBH'S would give the WW what she says she wants, there would be more reconciliations. I know this may not be what you would hear from everyone else, but mostly b/c they are doing the same thing.

[J5K]

[quote]
I believe if more LBH'S would give the WW what she says she wants, there would be more reconciliations. I know this may not be what you would hear from everyone else, but mostly b/c they are doing the same thing.

So if LBHs give them certain things there will be reconciliation even if she says she does not love you or want's to be with you? Do you giver her the children she wants to raise and then be ok with her not wanting you? I guess an LBH can, at least it is a positive start in the right direction.