Last night

[kyrie]

I agree with Drew.

The more you can drop his bags, the better. Kyrie, your walk with God doesn't mean you have to walk in someone else's footsteps on the beach.

My wife and I have had a very negative feetback loop in how we communicated with each other. I have, after some counseling and talking with people, realize have the CAPACITY to be passive-aggressive and sarcastic, looking for the worst in a situation. I often do with my wife, since she's more like that. I can also be very positive. But I really have to work on that with my wife, as we have a groove worn into our relationship that we always revert back to.

I think it's time to make a new groove. You can be loving AND firm in a boundary. Read Boundaries by Henry Cloud. He's also made marriage boundaries and some other boundaries books. You deserve more, and the Lord has much more in store for you, other than your husband's dumping ground. For a person that is a man of God, leading others in God's word, he's way off the reservation, as long as what you're telling us is true. It's unfortunate, but it happens - I'm broken, you're broken, and we all fall short of perfection - sometimes way far off.

You've come to Divorce Busting to get help - and that is very commendable. What I've seen people tell you over the last couple weeks is to work on yourself, and get the help you need. You won't find the help you need in your husband right now - not even close.

You need to find someone to talk to - to help you work through your situation. I would love to keep giving you encouragement and to fight for your marriage - I just feel the issues are so complex that a bulletin board discussion just isn't going to cut it.

Trumpet (hi! Hope things are well),
What does "dropping his bags" while still working on my respect issues and being loving *look like*?? That's what I get all muddled about.
What you're talking about sounds like putting the best construction on things (remember that from your Lutheran background?). Yes, those deep ruts of bad patterns are so difficult. I know I won't get help there - I just need to know more about responding, since it seems unavoidable.

Yes, sin is a part of all of us. We're all infected, to quote TWD. ;-)
I have an appt with an IC at the end of the month. Thinking that I should focus on communication with that person....hopefully they're worth it. Ugh.

[Drew]

There is a thread on here, I believe by Coach, that gives a very good, short summary on Boundaries, but I can't put my fingers on it right now.

If no one can find it, I'll take a shot at summarizing later.

[kyrie]

Hi Drew, I wasn't able to find it.

Hope ya'll are well. It's tough waiting on the counseling thing... I have the IC scheduled next week. But I may be able to squeeze in the DB counselor on Friday. Wonder if I should wait & see w/the IC first or not. Hmmm. Any thoughts, friends?

[kyrie]

Since he continues to push and "try"...I thought about this while reading some of MWD's stuff. Putting things in "action" terms.
At this point in the game, would it be better to not engage/"drop his bags" or maybe something like this...
Text from H this morning: "I'm tired of coming home to your cold indifference"
K - no response
H: But since I don't respond the way YOU want me to, why bother, right?
K: Good morning. You came home after I went to bed (near midnight). Were you needing something?
H: Condescending formality makes it worse.
No response from me.
But after thinking about things, it always comes back to this weird expectation he has that I'll say or do something ("sincere" in his words). He doesn't KNOW what that is, but he sure expects it.
Thinking about the action thing, I thought about asking (face to face):
"This morning it sounded like you needed something from me. Since communication has been difficult for us, I need you to be specific. Can you give me an example of what you'd like?"

(Usually he fires back that he shouldn't have to do that, I should know him by now, yadda yadda.) I want to clarify that I need more specific actions. "I've done a few things which have made you uncomfortable. What would be something I could do?"

Now that I wrote all that out, I'm thinking maybe that's not good.
What are your thoughts, friends?

[kyrie]

Bump

[25yearsmlc]

There is a thread on here, I believe by Coach, that gives a very good, short summary on Boundaries, but I can't put my fingers on it right now.

If no one can find it, I'll take a shot at summarizing later.

I don't think this is from Coach but it was helpful to me once upon a time.



Think about boundaries like this:
‘
Boundaries are not about controlling the other person, because boundaries are about drawing "circles" around *you* and determining what you will and won't allow inside that circle.

Your wife can do whatever she wants OUTSIDE that circle. You are not telling her what to do.

But you will only let into that circle people who treat you with respect.

She's free to go on treating you with disrespect, but you won't know about it because she'll be outside your circle. She's free to go on and draw her own boundaries of no expectations and no responsibilities, outside your circle.

She can do WHATEVER she wants. She's a free person, free to make WHATEVER choices she wants.

BUT SO ARE YOU, and you are free to choose who to allow within your circle.

That's all. Not about trying to control her at all. Tell her she's totally free. She has the WHOLE WORLD, outside your circle, to go and do whatever she wants.

If she's saying you have to let her into your circle no matter what, then THAT is about HER controlling YOU.
---------------------------

I'll think in more specifics since your h seems to think you are a mind reader and that he's not really responsible for being clear or specific with you.

Here are a few options, but others will probably have better ones.

Maybe you can say "I (sometimes) wish I could read your mind but I can't. So I really need you to be clear with me, so I can communicate with you more effectively.

Or ask him "H, how can I communicate more effectively with you?"

"H, I'm asking you what you need/want.

I don't want to wonder about tone or word use, especially when we are writing to each other. So I'm asking for clarity so there can't be misunderstanding.

I think If we speak clearly then we can know what our choices are and it'll be clear. There won't be any guessing".

[Zues126]

That is really nasty Kyrie. Really nasty stuff.

You don't want to tell him F off and let's get divorced, that's not what you want. You don't want to tell him you'll put up with this indefinitely, that's not what you want either. You don't want to spend time and mental energy trying everything under the sun hoping that some day he treats you like a human being, because you can't win that game. And you don't want to get cold and withdraw and use this to justify being resentful and distant because that's not the person you want to be and that won't help either.

Wow. I can see why you feel like you're out of options.

What I try to do is break this down into two parts:

1. What do you want to say?
2. How do you communicate this without saying it (actions not words)?

I think you're still struggling to figure out what you want to say. If you can't figure what you're trying to communicate, then you will be coming across as very inconsistent, and you will be very conflicted as you continue to wrestle with the same things. That's why I'm a believer in a mission statement, something you can use to guide all of your actions and responses.

For example, if your mission statement was this: I am not prepared to get divorced, or give up on my H or my marriage, but nor am I prepared to play a game I can't win, and I'm not going to be resentful and withdrawn...so my mission is to figure out in my mind what I feel a good wife would do for her husband, and I will do my best to do that without expectation of any positive responses...I will sort my feelings out in ways that doesn't impact my commitments to my H...with the only exception being that I will have clear boundaries that when he crosses I will withdraw from TEMPORARILY, then proceed to be loving again in our next interaction...and I will work with IC to sift for the grain of truth behind his spew and help process the pain of my unmet needs, help clarify those boundaries, and help with personal growth and other goals that will allow me to enjoy the rest of my life.

That's a lot of words, but it's a complicated situation. But from that perspective, when he spews via text you can say to yourself "ok, that hurts, I can't win this game. OK, that's fine. I knew I can't, I need to take a deep breath, let go of my expectations, and have a moment of silence for my unmet needs. Now then, does this cross a specific boundary I set? If so, I will need to communicate that and terminate this exchange. I will continue to do what I believe a good wife should, and our next exchange we can start fresh. If he didn't violate a clear boundary then I will put the emotional pain on a shelf for a minute, respond in a way that *I* feel good about, and pat myself on the back since he isn't about to. Then I will take a moment after it all to sit with my hurt, validate my own feelings, and make some mental notes for my next IC to understand where I can grow."

Your brain will keep wanting to go to 'what happens if I do all of this and nothing changes, can I put up with this forever, can I really live my entire life like this', etc, etc. You just have to let that go and find joy in being a strong woman in a tough spot. It won't be like this forever. Have faith.

[Drew]

Thanks 25, that's the thread I was thinking of.

Kyrie, think about this also, the difference between controlling, conflict behavior and healthy boundaries.

Controlling: H, I hate it when you ______.
Boundaries: H, when you _____, it makes me (feel) ______.

The next step is consequences when somebody doesn't respect your boundaries.

Controlling: H, you need to stop _______.
Consequence: H, if you continue to _______, I will ______.

An example:

Controlling: H, stop yelling at me!!!
Boundaries: H, when you yell at me, it makes me feel hurt and unimportant.
Consequence: If you continue to yell at me, I will leave the room until we can discuss more calmly.

Make sense? You wanted the Cliff notes, but the actual reading is much better. There is actually a version specific to marriages.

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks 25, that's the thread I was thinking of.

Kyrie, think about this also, the difference between controlling, conflict behavior and healthy boundaries.

Controlling: H, I hate it when you ______.
Boundaries: H, when you _____, it makes me (feel) ______.

The next step is consequences when somebody doesn't respect your boundaries.

Controlling: H, you need to stop _______.
Consequence: H, if you continue to _______, I will ______.

An example:

Controlling: H, stop yelling at me!!!
Boundaries: H, when you yell at me, it makes me feel hurt and unimportant.
Consequence: If you continue to yell at me, I will leave the room until we can discuss more calmly.

Make sense? You wanted the Cliff notes, but the actual reading is much better. There is actually a version specific to marriages.

These^^ is a good examples of wording and actions.

Sometimes I had to hang up the phone when h would spew at me.

I always gave him a warning about how his spew was disrespectful or hurtful absolutely "counter productive".)

A few other ways to redirect your conversations will follow. Choose what feels authentic for you in a given moment.

I suggest you plan some of these ahead of time so that once you have done your "prep work", you can shelve that issue, which allows you to be in the moment you're in, rather than constantly obsessing about the myriad of "what if he says this/that??"
Shelving or tabling an issue gave me some happiness b/c it reduced the pollution of my situation in other areas of my life.

Anyhow, IF your h raises an issue from the past that has a grain of truth in it, you can say
"H, I'm sorry I hurt you. If I had it to do all over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently"

and IF he brings up something that has no basis in fact (to the best of your knowledge---but hey, we have flawed memories too)

you can say
"H that's not how I recall it at all but I'm sorry it hurt you. IF I had it to do all over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently."

I know they are similar, but both of these ^^replies show your willingness to change, neither escalates the talk, and neither is too supplicating. They're also brief, and brevity in arguments is superior to long winded explanations or defenses or arguments.

Most WAS's want to flee conflict, OR rage on. They tend to ignore our changes b/c they are justifying their choice to bail out. They will tune us out quickly.

(That's my only "objection" to what Zeus wrote; i.e., I don't think your h will hear you out long enough.)

Here are some lines I've seen around here, that may help you:

"H if we can't communicate calmly without insults, I'm going to hang up."

"Let's talk when we're both calmer & can be more productive."

"H, it's not productive to bring up the past", or "we need to stay on topic" "let's get back to your original point".

**IF he insults you again or says that you will never change, etc. Try calling him on it, with your reaction to his reaction...

"When you say things like that, I start to wonder if anything I do or say will make a difference to you."

You can also try to insert more pro active positive remarks...

"I can't change the past but I want to work on our present, and create a more positive future. I need your help."

"I feel defensive now. How can we restructure this conversation so neither of us feels that way?" "How do you think WE can resolve this?" (Note that I use the term "we" to avoid placing blame on him)

"H, I want to make sure I'm clear about what you just said. (AND THEN RECAP his wording so he's accountable for it.)

When he continues to say YOU must do "X" and "Y", ask him IF THEN he'll be content.
EX: "So, if I initiate more intimacy, THEN you'll be or feel ---content/appeased???"

I've asked you before about being the bread winner & him not earning anything, a few times. You have not commented on it. That gives me pause. I'm not trying to embarrass you (or him.)

Is it something YOU feel bad about? Does HE? iF SO, might some of his anger simply be self reproach which he's projecting onto you?

Not that it solves anything to know ^^this, b/c it's still unacceptable. Yet it might help you not take his insults quite so personally.

[25yearsmlc]

PS

Kyrie, I think your fear is that no matter what you do or say, your h will continue to be your biggest critic. That he will Not be a fan of yours, or a teammate or partner or protector or provider...(which are terms most people's use to describe "good husbands.")

IF that ^^ is the case, you still have choices.

I also asked you if you believe you deserve to be happy. You were uncomfortable with the word "Deserve" and felt that was like asking you if you have "earned" it or that it may imply some selfishness on your end.

I sure don't see it that way. But maybe another way of asking you is , do you feel you deserve your h's disappointment/disrespect/criticism?
If so, why?

I really believe You can be the author of your life. You can decide how this chapter goes, and how the next chapters are written. Think about how you'd like them to happen.