Last night

[25yearsmlc]

I can see why you would say that Drew, but this convo was actually a rerun of many, many prior arguments we've had over our M. Almost identical. It was bad.
Respect is not required of the H (for Christians). However, love is...and honor and cherish. So yeah, it's missing.

I'm Christian & I was taught & believe that respect is a mutual part of our marriage vows. Respect forms part of what we define as love, and being cherished, or so I believe. Maybe we are not defining "respect in the same way, (versus "submission" which many argue was also to be reciprocated)

so I don't know how to respond to your above comment. However, I also don't think it would be very productive to argue it. This isn't really a place for us to get off on theological points; (& I apologize for feeling compelled to comment on it.)

I would only ask how you can expect to be happy or well treated or how rewarding this marriage can be for you, with him as your life partner and co-parent,
if You yourself don't feel deserving of respect from him?

(When was the happiest time in your marriage, and what changed from then?)

The other important piece here is that you're trying to learn from the above argument, which is useful.

So What "mistake" did you make? (You can't change his, so let's keep the focus on what you CAN do)... What could you have done differently?

Is that choice a tolerable option for you?

RE the DB advice you presented above.

You said you don't want us to keep harping about the porn b/c you don't see it as big an obstacle as some here do (and I think you sort of asked us to move on from that as a topic--which is fine by me. I mean, you were clear here so, fair enough)

What I read is that your DB coach said to GAL, Detach, and confront about the porn.
Only the porn piece differs and only from some of the advice here...So is there more?

(And Maybe after another session the advice will vary if you tell him it's not as big a thing. Or maybe he has a point you overlooked??

I recall that you did say the porn is a symptom. Symptom of what, though?

And kyrie, don't give up on yourself or DBing yet. Lots of it is counter intuitive at first.

IF you are sure You were open/clear and that you heard the DB advice clearly...then

Follow the advice of the DB coach

don't let us get you off track.

((( )))

[kyrie]

Kyrie,

You are getting a lot of advice. I know some of it is conflicting. Hard to piece all of this together.

I hope I can reduce some of your burden or clarify something for you. For instance, -the Porn- it's HIS issue, not yours.
Especially if you call it an "addiction", then it's really not Yours to fix or solve.
My dad was very well educated, always gainfully employed in a prestigious (but stressful) job, devoutly religious, and a highly functioning alcoholic.

My mother could not "make" him stop drinking.
My 8 siblings & I could not "make" him stop. His doctors' warnings could not "make" him stop or "wake him up" to HIS problem.

Only terminal cancer & death in 8 weeks, stopped that brilliant man from drinking.
Now, some 20 years later I realize that there are plenty of opinions about alcoholism, the role of genetics & the role of choice, but the only thing I KNOW

is that only my father (& God) could help him with HIS problem.

In other words, for now at least, I don't see anything for you to "do" about your h's porn.

From this thread, I see the options presented as you cutting him off physically, and or leaving the home (to "show him what divorce looks like/teach him a lesson"?),

or as Zeus said, accepting him as he is now
(& hoping things improve, with you GAL/Detaching).

Please learn from our mistakes!! My whole first year here, I felt strongly that my h ought to "feel the consequences of his actions" and I sure did not want to enable him to cake eat.

But my DB coach rocked my world with a very different perspective. At the moment, 2 things come to mind most:

She said 1) "yes to an extent, every WAS/MLC 'cake eats' for awhile.

That's b/c the LBSer is here trying to save the marriage, & the WAS/MLCer is not.
So, no, they do not have the same motivation as the LBSer.

AND

2) "it's Not the job of a spouse to 'teach the other spouse' a lesson or "show them the consequences of their choices. Life does that for them."

This ^^ was a hard one for me...

To be clear, she did NOT say to lie for him or cover for him or enable crappy behavior endlessly; she just made it clear that MY role was not as my h's judge, teacher, "spiritual guide" or punisher.

The DB journey for me was mostly a spiritual one, with a lot of self discovery.
To be completely open, I had to dig deep when Coach said all ^^this stuff bout "life teaching h".
After serious soul searching, I saw an unpleasant side to myself I'm not crazy about.

I had to admit that at least some of what I was saying about "showing h the consequences", was in actuality a cover for me, b/c I was angry, humiliated and very hurt.

A part of me wanted to punish my h. I used terms like "justice" and "fairness" as euphemisms for my desire for retribution, wanting him to feel pain - while telling myself that only with his "remorse" could I feel "safe" with him...B/c if he was in a lot of pain from his choices, I believed he'd be less likely to repeat the behavior...and there is a certain logic to that. But my motivations were not all pure,
(and definitely not working!)

Facing this side of me to work only on myself, when in pain, was was the hardest thing I've ever done.
But at least I knew some of what MY "work" was. For one thing, I changed my focus from wanting to "show h the consequences" to instead, giving my h something to miss. The happier our times together, the more fun the kids and I had, the more inner peace I felt/projected, the more positive images he'd have to miss later on...and the more good times the kids could look back on later, regardless of where the marriage headed.
I had plenty of work to do in my "sandbox" so I learned, eventually to stay out of h's sandbox.

He had HIS stuff to work on, and I had mine...does any of this resonate with you?

I really hope some of this helps you.

Do Keep on keeping on. IN TIME, this will get better, regardless of what your h does.

Hi 25Y,
I hear you and that makes sense, but again, the DB counselor made it sound like I should "do" something. Dunno when we'll talk again. I do want to accept him as he is now, but encourage&love him too. Not sure how to do THAt when my efforts are always shot down. He even said the things I say I admire or appreciate in him are those which (he believes) I'm just trying to encourage more of, and still try to "fix" him. Maybe there's truth there. Yet, I still appreciate those things & want to focus on positives, and solutions. Seems like that's what MWD says too.
What's more, he feels that in his role as pastor and H, it IS his role to teach me that. How do you manage that kind of thinking?? I can't argue w/ it.
You resonate, but again, it is HE who wants to focus on talking about this stuff endlessly, not me. I suggest better things to do, focus on, but nope - that would mean I'm getting "my way", according to him. It's really twisted.
WHat's more, most of this behavior is not new - it's only more manifest/aggressive. He's always been this way.

[kyrie]

Hey Kyrie,

Instead of just chalking it off as a failure, can you use this as a tool to make it the last re-run?

What was he shouting at you?
What was it that made you lose your temper?
What were you shouting at him when you did?

Where in there do you have power to handle it differently?

If you find better ways to handle this specific situation you might feel more prepared, and better, even before it comes up again. Also, this is where DB coaches are great. I know the first meeting is mainly informational, but if you give them a situation like this they can help you through it in a way that fits your overall plan.

Keep breathing!

Thanks Zues. Well, the shouting was nearer the end, escalation...after I returned fire. That I was a b!tch. That I want to control things and "want to show him my penis" (this is his reactionary term meaning that I'm acting like a man & trying to run the conversation my way). I reacted to that and said "well, you're into that kind of thing apparently, not me" - a cheat shot about the porn, throwing it in his face. Then I walked away.

I lost it when ...the things he said dismissed my feelings entirely. But I also get that's how he's feeling, even though I try to validate. I must suck at that. He sees all this stuff as simply manipulation and a game....because he knows the game so well.
All of it was disrespectful to him, and I didn't see his POV much. I even brought up that I do everything around the house (pay the bills, laundry, cleaning, cooking, trash, kitty litter, etc.) Complaining...not helpful right now I'm sure. He said I should do things happily, with humility, as Christians should.
The next day I did apologize for being disrespectful. He did some work fixing a few things around the house.

[kyrie]

I say overt because your WH has not as yet gone into full on shame mode. He seems not yet to have understood his compulsions are out of control, that is why you could uncover it with Intel.

When you are dealing with an addict you need Intel, that is very different to snooping. Firstly Intel is to know the position, snooping picks scabs. For instance I checked WH computer and iPad to know if he was gambling, nothing on there, then I discovered he had used his phone instead and hidden it, I tracked his iPhone to discover he was where he should not have been. I didn't read his conversations or pry his Facebook pages. I needed to uncover if WH was lying to me, he was. Once I knew he was withdrawing cash, using a new PayPal account. I called it.

My view is different on this as I have been living with a cross addicted WH for a few years oblivious to the depth of his addictions. You need Intel, once you have it then anything further is snooping. If they know you snoop they will get poop.
This is damaging you if it is hidden. Also when they spew they know you have Intel and it limits a little more what they say. The more outlandish the spew the less plausible it is and the less either of you believe it.


One of my WH favourite spews was he didn't do alone, so I started marking the online calenders, with activities, then I drew his attention to the number of times he went out and played golf and went away etc etc. Eventually he said I go out so I am not alone. Then he said and you have driven away my friends. There was no way I could come someone only a fool would leave, because WH wanted to leave no matter what I did, he was a fool.

I agree with your coach or what I understood your coach to say. For me it isn't the actual addiction itself, it could be any of them. Many use porn, visit girlie bars and have a flutter but they aren't addicted. It is the need for the substance or behaviour that causes the problem. For me any of this, alcohol, cigarettes, gambling, etc etc aren't the issue. (A little hard line on illegal stuff though). The main issue is what addicts do to stay with their addiction, that aspect remains no matter what the core addiction/s are. For the record I am fairly soft libel on soft porn and girlie bars etc. Whatever floats your boat. My issue is with what the addict does with the addiction.

Addicts do the following
1. Absorb into their addiction, it comes first in their life
2. Spend their time and energy either in the addiction, thinking about it or finding resources to feed it
3. Ceasing normal activities to pursue the addiction
4. Ranting, spewing, lying, manipulating others to continue even when they know this is their behaviour
5. Using resources that should go on family life for their addiction including money, time and effort
6. Understanding their use of the addiction to themselves and denying it's effects

------------------------------

Calling an addict on their addiction and it's effects isn't easy. This isn't about your R, it's about your boundaries. What you will and will not tolerate in your life. It is about saying this is the minimum I require including respecting these boundaries. Some addications (drugs, alcohol, anorexia etc) may need formal intervention with a group of concerned family and friends.

I see much of myself in you, that is the reason I think of denial and how very hard it is being with an addict.

And oh the spew the ranting etc, full blown. I even felt I deserved it.

V's abuse counsellors advice

V discussing how she believes contempt from WH is justified

On the last you will need to read to Jim's response, you can note how at that stage I felt I deserved to be treated that way. I believed WH spew. I had a Gamanon mentor and a specialist abuse counsellor.

This isn't about DB WH, it is about DB yourself.

I still sense you are resisting as if resisting will change things. Indeed this may sound strange but allowing your WH his addictions, his job to manage those and his behaviour is the hardest course of action. In this sense you are accepting and yielding that his behaviour is his. Accepting that WH is his own master and that what is under your control is your behaviour and your actions. Your boundaries.

At the time I joined DB I wanted to become a woman only a fool would leave, and yes WH behaviour caused me to be less than. I believed that my failures caused this reaction in WH. In actual fact it was his addictions that were causing the spew rants etc.

I eventually called WH on his behaviour, at first it was I have stopped etc. Then after we married it was "I don't need to stop, V this is all your fault because you are......"

Eventually I went "these are my boundaries, this is abuse"

When WH rants at you then record it. Don't react back just record it.

When you have a cool head, over a cup of coffee, replay it and listen as if you were a third party. Is what he says true? What might be his motive?

I replayed my recording to my Gamanon mentor (sponsor) and she was so frightened by WH spew and rants that we saw a victim support officer. I finally recognised the truth. It can help to replay to a safe uninvested third party. My abuse counsellor said she was too inexperienced to help with this level of rant and spew.

As the addictions increased and I enforced my boundaries then so WH escalated. My responses "I will not be spoken to in that way" and "please leave me alone until you have calmed down".

One of my tactics was the invisible headphones trick, playing gummie bear song Nuki Nuki in my head and tuning WH out. Not reacting at all, or STFU and walking away.

There was a technique I learned at work many years ago called blamestorming that helped me cope. Try googling blamestorming there is a book about managing conversations of the same name.

To confess I couldn't find much that helped on technique, much of it requires a willing other half to come to terms with it.

I created my own list of what to do and when WH started off then I decided what he was doing and behaved accordingly. You may need your own tactical stance.

I do understand how hard a journey this.

I will find the post I wrote on analysing reactions to spew and give you the link.

I see little conflicting advice in this, I confess. When in doubt your coach is the one to advise you. From what you write this seems core DB.

V

A lot to read through here (later)...problem is, most of what he says I do has truth in it. He says it in the worst possible/least helpful way, but there's truth enough. You say to call him on it but also to leave him to his addictions because they're his - did I get that right?
I admit, I'm NOT good at STFU, sometimes. I'm 1/2 French Canadian and 1/2 German. So I'm uptight, controlling and volitial. I may just go invade myself one of these days.

[kyrie]

I can see why you would say that Drew, but this convo was actually a rerun of many, many prior arguments we've had over our M. Almost identical. It was bad.
Respect is not required of the H (for Christians). However, love is...and honor and cherish. So yeah, it's missing.

I'm Christian & I was taught & believe that respect is a mutual part of our marriage vows. Respect forms part of what we define as love, and being cherished, or so I believe. Maybe we are not defining "respect in the same way, (versus "submission" which many argue was also to be reciprocated)

so I don't know how to respond to your above comment. However, I also don't think it would be very productive to argue it. This isn't really a place for us to get off on theological points; (& I apologize for feeling compelled to comment on it.)

I would only ask how you can expect to be happy or well treated or how rewarding this marriage can be for you, with him as your life partner and co-parent,
if You yourself don't feel deserving of respect from him?

(When was the happiest time in your marriage, and what changed from then?)

The other important piece here is that you're trying to learn from the above argument, which is useful.

So What "mistake" did you make? (You can't change his, so let's keep the focus on what you CAN do)... What could you have done differently?

Is that choice a tolerable option for you?

RE the DB advice you presented above.

You said you don't want us to keep harping about the porn b/c you don't see it as big an obstacle as some here do (and I think you sort of asked us to move on from that as a topic--which is fine by me. I mean, you were clear here so, fair enough)

What I read is that your DB coach said to GAL, Detach, and confront about the porn.
Only the porn piece differs and only from some of the advice here...So is there more?

(And Maybe after another session the advice will vary if you tell him it's not as big a thing. Or maybe he has a point you overlooked??

I recall that you did say the porn is a symptom. Symptom of what, though?

And kyrie, don't give up on yourself or DBing yet. Lots of it is counter intuitive at first.

IF you are sure You were open/clear and that you heard the DB advice clearly...then

Follow the advice of the DB coach

don't let us get you off track.

((( )))

Thanks 25Ys,
Happiest time...that's tough. There have been good days, far outnumbered by uncertainty, anxiety, hurt, fear, anger.
Yes, learning from my mistakes. It never seems to "stick".
I didn't say the porn isn't an obstacle. I'm saying it's not my primary focus. It hurts, it's an issue, it's one he'll have to deal with sooner or later (the DB Counselor stressed that), but it's a symptom and not *THE* problem. You all sounded like I thought it was *the* make-or-break problem (well, it may come to that if the pathology continues to worsen), but I recognize there's a bigger picture here. Frankly him not even caring about the affair is a bigger reveal of the state of his soul and heart, for a Christian.
Yeah, didn't get much more than that with the DB counselor.
Hmmm, symptom of... brokenness. His poor choices with how to deal with my hard-headedness... symptom of sin that underlies all our lives. Pride. Selfishness.

[sandi2]

Respect is not required of the H (for Christians). However, love is...and honor and cherish. So yeah, it's missing.

I don't how we could honor a person if we did not respect him/her.

I am not up on your story, I just wanted to join in on this subject since I usually have a lot to say about a woman needing to respect her H in order to experience the loving feelings and desire for him.

I believe anytime there is a lack of respect from either spouse, it builds a foundation for more problems. I really don't how anyone is able to endure a daily relationship of disrespect in a M. I was a WW who disrespected my H, and if it had been him disrespecting me........I would have been out of here as fast as I could pack a bag. Ironic? Maybe. I have noticed something the LBS's have in common (at least the majority of them),and that is how they seem to tolerate disrespect from their S.

I understand in some cases where a woman may have several children and solely dependent on her H, (or stays b/c of religious reasons), etc., and that it may not be so easy to just pack a bag and leave. Putting that scenerio aside, it continues to baffle me why this tollerance seems to be so common among the LBS's. Respect/honor should be required in a MR, and people should not settle for less.

If we have the idea that our S is not required to respect us, would that not wash away our own self-respect and give the message that we are not worthy or valuable enough to be respected?

[trumpet]

Kyrie,

Love Sandi's comments.

Getting sucked into his arguments, his spew, is hard. You care about him.

The trick is to realize it takes two to dance. And could you learn a new dance? To dance better? If we boil down all the support you've gotten, my thoughts are this:

Work on yourself. You can't fix your husband. He's got issues. Working on yourself is understanding the situation, getting tools to handle the stress of a husband who has issues affecting the marriage, and getting the help YOU need to be the best Kyrie.

Expressing your frustration is good - keep on posting. I keep up on your sitch, and there is no easy fix. I admire you. You are in it for the long haul. You want to have a family that is a blessing. Let's make sure Kyrie has the love inside of her (for us, it's the love of Christ working in us) first and foremost, for then we can love others. Be honest with yourself. But you're not showing love to your husband by trying to fix him.

My wife tried for 15 years. My addiction never stopped. It took a big event to realize what I was doing. It might take an event like that to have your husband stop. That isn't your responsibility right now - drop those bags.

Breathe. Exercise. Read. Enjoy the kids. PRAY. Be your best. And let the other chips fall where they may.

[25yearsmlc]

Kyrie,

DB tries to help us save ourselves, and our marriages. But please note that in her books and here,

no one is saying that we must save our marriages, at all cost.

I'm not sure how wonderful "saving a marriage" is,

IF what we really mean is to "not divorce", AND to stay in a marriage with disrespect as an acceptable option. Some marriages are not going to survive no matter what One spouse does...

I've still not figured out what your h sees as HIS responsibilities (as opposed to his rights).

You earn the money and you do most of the house work (but apparently not in a humble enough way) and most of the child care...and

You said it has been a pretty long time since you've had much happiness in this m,
and I can see why.

So, Do you believe you, Kyrie, deserve to be happy & respected?

What would be the negative consequences of a divorce from him, which HE has threatened?

Finally, if your h remains as he is now, (which is actually the most likely path), then what are the negative consequences of staying married to him?

[Vanilla]

Kyrie

Are you referring to the wording of your wedding vows?

V

[kyrie]

Respect is not required of the H (for Christians). However, love is...and honor and cherish. So yeah, it's missing.

I don't how we could honor a person if we did not respect him/her.

I am not up on your story, I just wanted to join in on this subject since I usually have a lot to say about a woman needing to respect her H in order to experience the loving feelings and desire for him.

I believe anytime there is a lack of respect from either spouse, it builds a foundation for more problems. I really don't how anyone is able to endure a daily relationship of disrespect in a M. I was a WW who disrespected my H, and if it had been him disrespecting me........I would have been out of here as fast as I could pack a bag. Ironic? Maybe. I have noticed something the LBS's have in common (at least the majority of them),and that is how they seem to tolerate disrespect from their S.

I understand in some cases where a woman may have several children and solely dependent on her H, (or stays b/c of religious reasons), etc., and that it may not be so easy to just pack a bag and leave. Putting that scenerio aside, it continues to baffle me why this tollerance seems to be so common among the LBS's. Respect/honor should be required in a MR, and people should not settle for less.

If we have the idea that our S is not required to respect us, would that not wash away our own self-respect and give the message that we are not worthy or valuable enough to be respected?

I can agree Sandi, however, you cannot demand respect (esp. a wife). And yes, I was referring to the wedding vows, which are still in play despite my feelings/experiences.
How should I deal w/it?
It is necessary, but cannot be demanded or coerced...sigh.
And love is also required/necessary, same deal though.