Last night

[kyrie]

Well, still thinking about the things he said. LIke I said, much sounded different than what you're advising. He did stress GAL. He said 2 things H believes fully: that he knows me completely and that I'm never going to change. Sounds true. He didn't say anything else on that though.
THought of a bunch of questions to ask after we were done. DUH.
He said I should speak up more about what I want/need - this sounded TOTALLY different than the DB stuff. He even implied I SHOULD confront H about the porn and I should continue to try to talk w/him.
So I'm really confused.

Again, it was mostly getting him up to speed (sigh - took waay too long and asked waaay too few questions). Tonight H is out with a neighbor friend (thankfully, a decent, godly man) - just shooting pool I think.
Well, from *how it sounded* - he did say I should not avoid the spew (which is mostly what I had been thinking about). No advise on how to manage the spew...
It was the confronting directly about the porn that surprised me. As well as about my own needs and wants! From everything I've read and seen here, your needs are NOT to be discussed, no matter how dire, if the WAS/WS is not clearly ready to reconcile. And the confrontation (for lack of a better word) part... he didn't give me any real advise on how other than to limit it. Same w/the spews. Put a limit on it (which frankly sounds exactly like me trying to control it). He did say my job is not to make him happy but to submit. But H's interpretation on that is one and the same. So no clarity there...
Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough. Frankly I thought he might get more familiar with my stuff here to prep, but that's my own expectation.
He did say no matter what, H is destined to face this stuff one way or another. That makes sense.

[kyrie]

And that's different than the "just forgive" and detach advise most of you have advised. 25yearsMLC - he threatened divorce a couple of times but it was his usual empty threat in order to provoke/manipulate an acceptable response.
As a couple, he says he wants to hash through our 12 years and talk about all the bad stuff (and of course from him, its all bad). No other goal or purpose. I've already "owned" my own sins, failures and hurting of him (disrespect, criticisms, etc), apologized and continue to work on those things. That's important, with or without him, I know.
But that's not enough. Every night he sits and waits for me to say something - he has no way to describe "what he's looking for" from me but its sincerity and real affection. Its a manipulation game, like he tries with most everyone. When it doesn't work, he spews. He feels like he's winning the battle if he belittles others.
Work sitch: that's complex. I'm the sole provider really (not by my own choice...) 8 years ago we went to IL to start a mission congregation (from the ground up, so to speak). It failed. It was hard and I had to work to support the family. He stayed home to get the girls ready for school. After that, home alone all day. For 7 years, other than the occasional band thing (that was his other life - playing in Blues/Rock bands & how he hooked up with OW). Then he had an opportunity to come to the mother church in TX - he always wanted to live in TX. So I came down a year ago for a job, he stayed in IL to sell the house & care for the girls. Now we're here & full on MLC. Job [censored] (it kinda does), no bands, no opportunities. I totally sympathize and listen (just listen!!) when he complains about it. Hardly any pay either. So he's pretty stressed out from all that. I really get that part.
He's a pastor, and teaches at the new Seminary here which he helped to get off the ground. That's the only area where I feel like I can really overtly support and cheer for him. When he's in the mood to accept that...

[kyrie]

DB an addict has its own slant and tactics.

I was advised by an abuse specialist counsellor to call on the addiction.

Your WH is an overt addict, what does this mean? You are aware he is addicted and it is possible he is still denying it to himself. If he were covert you would need to really dig to know.

So yes, calling him on the addiction is cutting your enabling. You will need to be safe and have dates times locations. You can even do this by email. This should be done matter of fact without anger or judgemental.

Addiction is illness.

Above all be safe.

V

Hey V... why do you say overt? I knew about it but that's because of, gulp (ducks for cover from cat04), snooping. I straight out asked him about it only 2 weeks ago. I suspect it has been there all along, or at least "periodically" (his word) for our whole marriage.
So, I've 'called him' on it... but it still continues.
When I got nerve up to ask directly, he answered mostly honestly. No remorse and I was very calm and mostly just listened.
He doesn't know that I know about the nudie bar.

FWIW, the DB counselor said he thinks I'm on the right track with some stuff (GAL, taking care of myself physically, focusing on my own issues). Dunno when we'll talk again.

[kyrie]

And last night did not go well. Dunno if I somehow felt empowered by the counselor or just incredibly stupid but totally went backwards, got angry (after he came to "talk") and spewed right back at him. UGH. No wonder he feels like I'll never change. I have to stop.
DON'T KNOW HOW.

[Drew]

Actually, standing up to him IS a change for you.

I agree with your DB coach. In my opinion, your husband doesn't respect you. Which is why I advised standing up to him, walking away when he starts to spew, and possibly even leaving for awhile if he continues to abuse you.

[kyrie]

I can see why you would say that Drew, but this convo was actually a rerun of many, many prior arguments we've had over our M. Almost identical. It was bad.
Respect is not required of the H (for Christians). However, love is...and honor and cherish. So yeah, it's missing.

[Zues126]

Hey Kyrie,

Instead of just chalking it off as a failure, can you use this as a tool to make it the last re-run?

What was he shouting at you?
What was it that made you lose your temper?
What were you shouting at him when you did?

Where in there do you have power to handle it differently?

If you find better ways to handle this specific situation you might feel more prepared, and better, even before it comes up again. Also, this is where DB coaches are great. I know the first meeting is mainly informational, but if you give them a situation like this they can help you through it in a way that fits your overall plan.

Keep breathing!

[trumpet]

Kyrie,

Respect needs to be mutual. Your husband must respect you, and you must respect your husband.
For the vast majority of men, love to them is being respected.
For the vast majority of women, love to them is being understood and appreciated - cherished.

No one deserves to be disrespected. Sticking up for yourself, loving yourself enough to lay that boundary down to him when he's spewing is very tough when you haven't done it before. I'm learning that personally. Never been good at boundaries... learning every day.

You have to love yourself enough to let that love show to others, to be able to love others.

[Vanilla]

I say overt because your WH has not as yet gone into full on shame mode. He seems not yet to have understood his compulsions are out of control, that is why you could uncover it with Intel.

When you are dealing with an addict you need Intel, that is very different to snooping. Firstly Intel is to know the position, snooping picks scabs. For instance I checked WH computer and iPad to know if he was gambling, nothing on there, then I discovered he had used his phone instead and hidden it, I tracked his iPhone to discover he was where he should not have been. I didn't read his conversations or pry his Facebook pages. I needed to uncover if WH was lying to me, he was. Once I knew he was withdrawing cash, using a new PayPal account. I called it.

My view is different on this as I have been living with a cross addicted WH for a few years oblivious to the depth of his addictions. You need Intel, once you have it then anything further is snooping. If they know you snoop they will get poop.
This is damaging you if it is hidden. Also when they spew they know you have Intel and it limits a little more what they say. The more outlandish the spew the less plausible it is and the less either of you believe it.


One of my WH favourite spews was he didn't do alone, so I started marking the online calenders, with activities, then I drew his attention to the number of times he went out and played golf and went away etc etc. Eventually he said I go out so I am not alone. Then he said and you have driven away my friends. There was no way I could come someone only a fool would leave, because WH wanted to leave no matter what I did, he was a fool.

I agree with your coach or what I understood your coach to say. For me it isn't the actual addiction itself, it could be any of them. Many use porn, visit girlie bars and have a flutter but they aren't addicted. It is the need for the substance or behaviour that causes the problem. For me any of this, alcohol, cigarettes, gambling, etc etc aren't the issue. (A little hard line on illegal stuff though). The main issue is what addicts do to stay with their addiction, that aspect remains no matter what the core addiction/s are. For the record I am fairly soft libel on soft porn and girlie bars etc. Whatever floats your boat. My issue is with what the addict does with the addiction.

Addicts do the following
1. Absorb into their addiction, it comes first in their life
2. Spend their time and energy either in the addiction, thinking about it or finding resources to feed it
3. Ceasing normal activities to pursue the addiction
4. Ranting, spewing, lying, manipulating others to continue even when they know this is their behaviour
5. Using resources that should go on family life for their addiction including money, time and effort
6. Understanding their use of the addiction to themselves and denying it's effects

------------------------------

Calling an addict on their addiction and it's effects isn't easy. This isn't about your R, it's about your boundaries. What you will and will not tolerate in your life. It is about saying this is the minimum I require including respecting these boundaries. Some addications (drugs, alcohol, anorexia etc) may need formal intervention with a group of concerned family and friends.

I see much of myself in you, that is the reason I think of denial and how very hard it is being with an addict.

And oh the spew the ranting etc, full blown. I even felt I deserved it.

V's abuse counsellors advice

V discussing how she believes contempt from WH is justified

On the last you will need to read to Jim's response, you can note how at that stage I felt I deserved to be treated that way. I believed WH spew. I had a Gamanon mentor and a specialist abuse counsellor.

This isn't about DB WH, it is about DB yourself.

I still sense you are resisting as if resisting will change things. Indeed this may sound strange but allowing your WH his addictions, his job to manage those and his behaviour is the hardest course of action. In this sense you are accepting and yielding that his behaviour is his. Accepting that WH is his own master and that what is under your control is your behaviour and your actions. Your boundaries.

At the time I joined DB I wanted to become a woman only a fool would leave, and yes WH behaviour caused me to be less than. I believed that my failures caused this reaction in WH. In actual fact it was his addictions that were causing the spew rants etc.

I eventually called WH on his behaviour, at first it was I have stopped etc. Then after we married it was "I don't need to stop, V this is all your fault because you are......"

Eventually I went "these are my boundaries, this is abuse"

When WH rants at you then record it. Don't react back just record it.

When you have a cool head, over a cup of coffee, replay it and listen as if you were a third party. Is what he says true? What might be his motive?

I replayed my recording to my Gamanon mentor (sponsor) and she was so frightened by WH spew and rants that we saw a victim support officer. I finally recognised the truth. It can help to replay to a safe uninvested third party. My abuse counsellor said she was too inexperienced to help with this level of rant and spew.

As the addictions increased and I enforced my boundaries then so WH escalated. My responses "I will not be spoken to in that way" and "please leave me alone until you have calmed down".

One of my tactics was the invisible headphones trick, playing gummie bear song Nuki Nuki in my head and tuning WH out. Not reacting at all, or STFU and walking away.

There was a technique I learned at work many years ago called blamestorming that helped me cope. Try googling blamestorming there is a book about managing conversations of the same name.

To confess I couldn't find much that helped on technique, much of it requires a willing other half to come to terms with it.

I created my own list of what to do and when WH started off then I decided what he was doing and behaved accordingly. You may need your own tactical stance.

I do understand how hard a journey this.

I will find the post I wrote on analysing reactions to spew and give you the link.

I see little conflicting advice in this, I confess. When in doubt your coach is the one to advise you. From what you write this seems core DB.

V

[Vanilla]

Incidentally I did spew back I called this part of me screaming banshee and I did stop her.

Know this the emergence of this part of you is to protect you. When this emerges be clear that means your subconscious is preparing to defend you.

This is good, better than numb and doormat.

It is part of your journey to your boundaries, you do not have to justify anything, as a human it is your right to enforce your boundaries for respecthe. That shows you have self respect and self worth.

There is no way WH will change his views on anything, if they really are his views! Things can be said in order to achieve confusion and effect. So "yes WH you have said that I don't agree. Let's agree to disagree". I once said to WH, "yes, I get it, it's my fault you lost when gambling today". It shut him up for nearely two days.

V