Zeus, are you feeling angry that you wasted your effort on me? I get the sense you may be feeling that way. I want you to know I do appreciate all the effort you've put into being there for me. I don't always agree that the advice really fits for me but even so, none of it is a waste, even if I do decide to give up on my W. I am learning about what's true for me, and all of this is helping me get there.
It's all good Jguy. Posting on DB forums is no different than DB. I don't have any expectations about your responses or behavior. I am not attached to your journey. I am choosing to do what I wish, and respecting the autonomy of others.
There is no waste here. Half of what I'm writing is aimed at other readers. Sometimes it is easier to learn about yourself by reading someone else's sitch since our own defenses aren't up.
I remember in I was in group therapy once. As we went around the room and everyone talked to the counselor I saw them get angry, defensive, denying they had any issues, meanwhile I had my jaw on their floor because they were all messed up. Person after person had massive problems, but they all kept denying it, acting like they were fine, everything was under control. It was eye opening. Then when it came to me I realized...I probably had problems too. Even though I felt that I was normal, everyone else was screwed up, the experience of having SEEN that first hand in so many other people with obvious issues...it was enough to wake me up and make changes.
You are a brilliant, talented, and accomplished person. You have a big heart and a ton of passion.
To me this all looks like a trap. The smarter they are, the more talented they are, the more likely they are to believe they have it all figured out, all under control. I know, now's where you explain to me that you don't think that, you're open minded and taking pieces that fit, etc. That's fine JGuy. All I'm saying is that when someone hits rock bottom there is a certain sense of humility that comes with. People speak more softly. People are afraid of making decisions because the ones they've made have been so destructive. That's simply not where you're at. But you will be. Without fail I know that this is in your future, I have seen this play out too many times. Bookmark my posts and when the day comes your pain exceeds your pride you can reread the threads and it will look totally different when you truly need help as opposed to debating for the sake of self validation.
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I too believe in the sacredness of M. I agree that way too many people give up way too easily on a M as soon as it gets difficult. They fail to see how their childhood issues are contributing to the problems and they blame it all on their spouse. They leave, go find someone new who seems different in all the right ways, then end up repeating their failure again. That's exactly what my W is on the verge of doing with me. I have been through three long term relationships before I was married and I have learned this from first hand experience so I know what you are talking about. You are preaching to the choir.
My XW just told me last week "I believe marriage is the ultimate sin. Our struggles showed we weren't meant to be together." This is word for work.
I'm not upset by that now, but I do get irritated with people that claim to be committed to marriage that aren't. It is disrespectful to people that are serious about it and to those that take you for your word. If you missed my black and white post here it is:
But what is a person to do when despite their best efforts, their spouse is completely absent and not participating in the R? They have done everything they can to be willing to forgive, be patient, communicate their needs respectfully as a request and not a demand, etc, and their spouse still doesn't respond or make any effort to grow in the ways that the R requires of them? You can detach, GAL, work on yourself in isolation, but all of us ultimately need a partner who is engaged and whom they can grow with together. If this need is not fulfilled and the partner won't budge despite your best efforts to change what you can about yourself, then is it really honoring the higher purpose of life to remain unhappy by staying in the miserable M? How long does one keep trying before enough is enough? I'd say this is a very personal choice...
That is a very difficult question, hard to answer, and harder to execute...but I won't even try to answer that yet. Because it's simply nowhere near the reality. There's a lot of things you talk about in theory that are completely absurd:
-your best efforts -spouse completely absent, not participating -you have done everything generous possible -spouse makes no effort to grow as required of them -We all NEED a partner where we can grow together -If partner won't budge -How long do we stay miserable???
There is a ton of expectation, scorekeeping, judgment/criticism, and blaming in here. This proves to me you not only haven't done everything you can, you haven't even started your journey. All of your writing and debating has been a dog chasing it's tail. You can debate this too, I'm expecting you too, that's fine. Your journey Jguy. Normally once people truly grow and change, find their own happiness, and respect their partner as an equal (which means she gets to grow and change in her own ways, not the ways you think she's supposed to)...it's amazing how marriages can be transformed. But no, if your happiness is conditional upon her growing in the ways that you think she's supposed to, which will coincidentally allow you to stay the same (or allow you to keep growing in the one dimensional direction you are comfortable travelling)...then this is not going to work.
That is why I suggested filing D with all seriousness. I wouldn't tell someone to take their kids to the fair with only $2 in their pocket because they probably won't be able to gain admittance, much less do anything fun. What you're bringing to your marriage is not going to get you far, if you don't have more to bring then save the trip.
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It's important that I explore this question for myself. I am facing my own ambivalence and it's important to me that I explore the full range of options. I guess what I'm doing here is mapping out what my own beliefs are. I'm figuring it out. I do believe it's OK to choose divorce if I have tried everything I can for "long enough" and my W is consistently stuck and not making any progress. I cannot conclude that yet.
I understand. I think of beliefs as paramount, things that we exalt over feelings and thoughts, because feelings are misleading, and our thoughts are as well stemming from our feelings...beliefs keep us on track, and prevent us from following our feelings and rationalizations off a cliff. I think it's backwards to try to reason out beliefs. In fact, I wouldn't even call them beliefs at that point, I'd say you're spending time rationalizing what you want to do. I get it. Like I said, the danger of being smart.
I gamble on pool. I don't win much from people that don't think they can play. But the people that are talented, hard working, best in their local city, gifted, and confident...those are the people that are willing to bet thousands. That's where I've made my biggest wins.
I say this because I believe lack of humility is your greatest challenge. But that's ok. As I've said, it will change. Or it won't. I don't wish you the pain it will take to cause that change, but for your sake I hope it comes sooner than later, and that you gain from it when it does.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
