Submission sex isn't satisfactory to either party which ends up leading to resentment on both parties. He ends up wanting more enthusiastic better sex and she wants him to be happy she "submitted" and gave him sex at all (then later she tells OM that she felt raped).
IMO, sex either has to be a mutually enjoyable experience (or, at least, enjoyable for her) or it's just not worth it.
Sometimes the wives that don't like the icky'ness of it just need their husbands to wear a condom so there isn't any "mess" afterwards. They can just roll over and go to sleep while YOU go to the bathroom to "clean up" and flush the condom.
I apologize if I'm oversimplifying this complex issue. I've never really experienced this problem. But I can say the sex is much better in a recovered marriage when both of us are equally invested in meeting each others needs the way the other spouse likes those needs met.
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
She has her own issues with self-image, and very low libido. I'm working through my struggles, and praying that if God wants me to live in a sexless marriage, that I accept it, and continue to reconcile. It might just be that way - my wife sees no issue with zero intimacy. Yes, the Bible says this, that, all the marriage websites say to just do it, but to her, it's icky and gross, and she might not ever get over it. I have to accept that.
Unless there is a medical explanation for her "low libido", I would tend to think it's her excuse she has given you for a long time. I wasn't interested in having sex with my H, either. I blamed it on low libido, too. Funny thing, when I started my A, I discovered there was nothing wrong with my libido. I didn't want sex with my H b/c I wasn't emotionally connected or intimately connected and had did not feel attracted to him. It was as if my wiring had been clipped. OM comes along, and wham!
25yrsmlc said something that stuck with me. I had read men saying about the same thing and just thought that was how men felt, but she came along and said she would not consider staying in a sexless M. I have read others that said it is a form of abuse, for your S to tell you that they would simply not be having sex with you in the future. It's something to think about, Trumpet.
Are you really ready to face a future without any sex? And let me add this, too. I also learned that doctors can give a woman something to help her libido......if that truly is a problem for her. Like I said, a lot of women feel that way based on other issues in the MR.
Don't be too quick to think it's God plan or that you just have to accept this b/c your WW thinks sex is icky. She doesn't. She thinks it is icky with you b/c the attraction is gone.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Wife has made some effort to be friendly to me. I took the day off, and worked around the house, read a couple books, worked out.
Before we headed off to D14 and S12's band concert, I made supper. She seemed wanting to talk, so we chatted a bit. I mentioned about D7's flu shot tomorrow, and wife mentioned she might cancel, since it's so late in the year. I said I'd still be willing to take her, between some other appointments.
The last phrase did me in. She wanted to know about all my other appointments on my day off. I just said I was going a couple places. She continued to hound me for a few more minutes saying it wasn't fair that I wouldn't tell her where I was going.
The discussion boiled down to she's not OK with me having 'things' to do, and her not having full access to all my emails and phone records, if I keep on insisting she has to give up all her privacy. It's just not fair, and she won't do it. She feels like a 2 year old, and says she still hasn't retracted the divorce filing. She feels like I should have instantaneous trust and faith in her. That having her EA as a Facebook friend, and his number still in her phone (she said yes, she still had it in her phone) was something I'd have to deal with.
I asked her to swap roles for a bit, and would it be fair? She ended the conversation, and almost left the house before the concert. I told her to wait a minute, that the kids would want us to go as a family. We did.
I apologized for being a little passive agressive with my 'other appointments' comment. When we got home, I did spell out, minus a complete NC letter, what she had to do. NC, unfriend facebook, delete his phone number, you can't have that temptation there.
She's still acting as if I'm grounding her. I'm really trying to come at this from two angles - a solid boundary, but also since I have an addiction, explaining that I did a lot of damage to us, and these requirement will need to be done so that both of us can begin the huge work of building a new marriage. That I'm sorry I caused all the pain with my addiction.
She said she's getting tired of my apologies. She's apologized once before she went back to contacting OM, and apologized again on Sunday. I'm not asking for an apology back - not looking for it. I'm just showing her that I understand the pain I caused her. I guess I'll stop with any further apologies, as this is causing friction with us.
She says it's very hard to respect me. That to just give her lots of space. It's tough - giving her space, but not seeing any progress on OM front, and the D filing still open.
I keep thinking that my addiction took about 60 days to get clear of the urges. Would 60 days or so be enough time for WW to clear enough of the fog to start couples counseling? Should she need more space?
Her wanting to be all chummy with me, but no heavy lifting so far makes my brain sizzle a bit. I keep on thinking she's cake eating. Maybe it's not, but that's my gut.
Funny thing - D14 heard us talking in the kitchen, and heard my wife swear at me. I don't ever swear in return anymore. D14 got mad at her mom, and told her so. WW then said a couple biting words to D14, and left the room. D14 came over a few minutes later and gave me a hug and a kiss, and said she was siding for me on that little arguement. I told her no one is right or wrong on this one, but we're trying to work through a few things. It was just funny that D14 said something to mom - that's the second time in the last 3 months she has. No coaching, no nothing - showing that she understands the dynamics probably better than I do at times. I don't like that she sees it, but she is very happy we're trying to R.
M46, EXWW46 M15 T17 D20, S19, D13 M - Addiction since 1998 W EA/PA #1 2013/2014 W EA #2 June 2015... BD 1 Big D talk 9/15 BD 2 - EA/PA disc 10/30/15 Served D 1/22/16 Divorced 5/25/16 (yes, that fast!)
That having her EA as a Facebook friend, and his number still in her phone (she said yes, she still had it in her phone) was something I'd have to deal with.
I think she is still trying to figure out a way to hide this information from you.
If she is acting like a teenager that is not a good sign.
Where did the talk of the no-contact letter come in to the conversation?
Did she come to you with remorse and regret, apologetic for the affair, at rock bottom, looking to do anything and everything she could to save the marriage?
Or are you trying to steer her down this road by showing her what you want from her?
No one should ever 'not agree' to a no-contact letter...because it shouldn't be suggested until you know they will say yes. Anything earlier than that is pursuit and controlling behavior. As is the constant apologizing. It is laced with expectation, either of her forgiveness, or her apologizing back, or of her to follow your lead now that you are a wise spiritual leader in the household in your own mind.
Again, not sure if she's done or said some things that led you to talking about NC letters and going out as a family, but from what I'm seeing she is not recommitting to the M, and anything she's said to that effect is manipulation from an addict to avoid consequences.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Where did the talk of the no-contact letter come in to the conversation?
Did she come to you with remorse and regret, apologetic for the affair, at rock bottom, looking to do anything and everything she could to save the marriage?
Or are you trying to steer her down this road by showing her what you want from her?
No one should ever 'not agree' to a no-contact letter...because it shouldn't be suggested until you know they will say yes. Anything earlier than that is pursuit and controlling behavior. As is the constant apologizing. It is laced with expectation, either of her forgiveness, or her apologizing back, or of her to follow your lead now that you are a wise spiritual leader in the household in your own mind.
Again, not sure if she's done or said some things that led you to talking about NC letters and going out as a family, but from what I'm seeing she is not recommitting to the M, and anything she's said to that effect is manipulation from an addict to avoid consequences.
I believe this is important to answer, Trumpet.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
She won't write the letter. Sees no need. I've asked. Heck, I told her she needs to, if we want to work on the marriage.
She said yes on Sunday, and she meant it. Was it a moment of weakness for her? I consider it a moment out of the fog.
From all I've read from Sandi, she is back in the fog. She'll be there a while. Her telling me she was going to call the lawyer and call everything off, call the OM and end it, and call for a counselor was met by me with happiness. That turned into concern when I didn't see it happen.
I hate having to have the R talk, but it needed to be done. She's got to be accountable for what she said on Sunday. We hashed things out last night, but she still hasn't over-the-top willingly wanted to do anything.
For this, I think I've been played a bit.
She wants the conversation, the texts from me, the phone calls, since she's not talking to OM, but really, she just keeps trying me on for size.
I have told her 3 times this week that in order for US to reconcile, these things have to happen. She greets those requests with disrespect, including eye rolls, huffing, and trying to end the conversations with 'bye trumpet' or 'we're done talking'. 'You're treating me like a 2 year old!'.
This tells me her heart is still with OM, and we still need space. How much conversation do I do with her, when she's still struggling?
She started wearing her ring on Sunday. Hasn't taken it off. I continue to say hello in the morning, and talk with her when she gets home, esp. in front of the kids.
My expectations just don't meet up with reality. I'm focused on gaining patience and waiting it out, I just get concerned when my wife says she wants to begin to heal, and does a couple of things, but then doesn't want to talk about the relationship ('I'm tired of talking about it'), and doesn't do the things I've asked.
I did explicitly state she needs to delete OM from her phone and email, all pictures, so there is no temptation last night.
She won't write the letter - she's already heard from our pastor a month ago, on the first go-around, that the letter wasn't something worth doing. So, she can always bring up that.
M46, EXWW46 M15 T17 D20, S19, D13 M - Addiction since 1998 W EA/PA #1 2013/2014 W EA #2 June 2015... BD 1 Big D talk 9/15 BD 2 - EA/PA disc 10/30/15 Served D 1/22/16 Divorced 5/25/16 (yes, that fast!)
Trumpet, look around here. You are in a better place than most. It sounds to me as if your wife is questioning, and that is a good thing. Patience is key for you now. Do not push anything. Continue doing what brought you here. I have a good feeling that she will break out of the fog.
Me-40's W- 40's Married 22, Together 29 BD#1- 6/15 W needs space BD#2- OM confirmed PA 1/8/16 Still both home, but not for long
I disagree. I don't think asking for a "no contact letter" is pursuing or controlling. It's just a smart way for Trumpet's wife to put her money where her mouth is (when she said "I choose you").
With a wayward wife is this kind of situation (where the betrayed husband already made it apparent they weren't going to kick her to the curb where she'd have to fight to get back in the home/family/marriage) there is seldom - "she came to me remorseful and regretful and apologetic for the affair, at rock bottom and looking to do anything and everything she can to save the marriage".
Your wife has no idea how to end her EA. She knows she has too but at the same time doesn't want to give it up entirely. She's negotiating with herself, with you and with OM about how she can juggle both. Her reaction to the suggestion and requirement of a "no contact letter" is telling....so asking wasn't a waste of time or effort. It told YOU where you are in this process.
Begging for a "No Contact" letter would be over the top. Asking and then getting mad/angry/upset when she behaves like the typical wishy washy wayward would also be over the top. But neither of you have done this before so just naturally knowing what to do or when to ask certain questions isn't going to work and then you end up in recovery situations where "no contact" is presumed - no one is accountable to anyone and since the 3rd party is still involved - the recovery fails.
The gesture of a "no contact" letter is the first step to actual "no contact". I puts OM on notice that he's been pushed aside and de-prioritized by the wayward wife. It lets him know that when push comes to shove - the ww is going to choose her family over him so he might as well move on (even if she comes begging back for him). I have seen numerous incidents where the OM just lashes out at the WW revealing that he was just playing her for sex anyway and didn't truly ever care about her or revealing that he has several other married and unmarried women to continue to keep him happy so good luck with your husband. Not that you write the "no contact" letter hoping OM will react like that but you never know....OM's like to play macho-man and act all PUA Alpha dog that would never pursue a woman that rejects them.
It's also very often "rock bottom" itself for the wayward. Sending that letter is an admission that they were wrong - that the affair was wrong - and that they really do need to live up to their words (written in black and white on that paper). It's an admission that OM was a mistake and that they actually do love their spouse which is so contrary to what they've been saying to themselves for so long.
You don't have to hide step one from your wife waiting for her to come to the conclusion herself. You are way to far into this situation to be playing that game. Pursue - distance is a strategy of attraction but it's not an overriding life principle. Truth and honesty ARE (especially when you have sins of your own). Be aware of pursue-distance stuff but don't let it dictate common sense.
On that note - other than not telling her about your thread here on DB, any attorney advice or what your friends and family are really saying about her - don't lie to her. She has a right to ask where you are going - just as she has a right to ask what's in your computer history or what's in your briefcase. Besides - telling her what a full and interesting day you have going on IS attractive. Casually invite her along perhaps without any reaction if she says no.
Truth/Honesty/History - the foundation of recovery.
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
With 3 kids at home, and the job I work, I don't have a ton of free time to kill. I work on Saturdays, and have some time on Sundays and Fridays. Lately, Sundays have been taken up with schlepping kids to activities and getting a few things done around the house. Fridays, my day off, I'm often going to appointments and catching up on laundry.
I do like to head out for a coffee now - spend some alone time reading the books I've been ordering. Need to re-read a few chapters in no more mr nice guy, and divorce remedy. love and respect is half-done.
The wife seems to throw a hissy when I do go out - making mention that I might be seeing someone, or asking 20 questions. She doesn't go out - she's a homebody, and just facebook surfs at night in bed. If I don't tell her where I'm going, she lets me know that I'm not being truthful, and if I want her to be up front and honest, I need to as well.
Should I just tell her exactly where I'm going? I'd love to invite her for coffee, but right now, today, is not a day I really want to spend much time with her. That never used to happen, so there is changes in me that are sticking - for now.
Oh, and I have a calf strain with achilles tendonitis. Need new shoes with more support - my feet are as flat as the Kansas plains. Going for physical therapy as well. The doc said I should cross out doing a shamrock run, aim for summer. Well, I still have my lose 40 by my 40th, so I have 2 months to kill off 15 lbs. Will be joining a gym to get elliptical training instead of running. Fun times!
M46, EXWW46 M15 T17 D20, S19, D13 M - Addiction since 1998 W EA/PA #1 2013/2014 W EA #2 June 2015... BD 1 Big D talk 9/15 BD 2 - EA/PA disc 10/30/15 Served D 1/22/16 Divorced 5/25/16 (yes, that fast!)
