Z - Is your W seeing an IC? I'm just remembering a topic we touched on last month, and so much of what you're saying about her hits me soundly. I'm going to be wide open here, and it's hard for me, so forgive me if I stumble around a bit.
I love intimacy with my H. But no matter how hard I tried, at times the sex act made me sick. It wasn't a matter of having childhood abuse running through my head at the same time, that would have been gross, it's more like I got sick out of nowhere, and then had to later think about what on earth had happened.
Needless to say, H didn't know I was feeling physically ill...but he could feel the change. I went from loving to going through the motions. It was never anything he did. It just bubbled up out of nowhere. It was even more true when it came to oral sex. I loved to please him, but at times I felt degraded, controlled - and I don't think it was anything he was doing.
I was happiest when we would keep it light. Cuddling, talking, going out and doing things together. Too much closeness and I'd start to feel suffocated. Until I read your comments, I've never actually realized all this. But I do know where it comes from.
The feeling of the sickness comes from my childhood, no question. H never did a thing that could have caused that to bubble up. It has to be deeply ingrained in my subconscious. I remember sobbing after ML back when we first got together and it was so intense. I literally couldn't handle it. I'd feel dirty afterwards! I was a married woman, doing what comes naturally with her H, and it made me have a negative physical reaction. I see so many shades of my behaviours in what you're describing about your W.
Until this moment, I hadn't really put it together. Now I'm realizing how far back my counseling is going to have to go. It also begins to answer why it is my H said he doesn't believe I love him. Wow. I can tell you for myself - I loved him, still do, as much as I am capable. I loved him more than I've loved anyone. But maybe the trauma from my childhood, that I never discuss has done more damage than I realize. I'll be thinking a lot about this now.
I'm bringing it up, because if your wife isn't willing/able to really dig into this with a therapist, she may never be capable of the kind of closeness you're longing for. You may have to be content believing her when she says she loves you. I never lied to H about that. I did love him. But I realize now, how very much the abuse in my childhood really crippled me in certain areas as an adult. I never realized the full scope until seeing it in your situation.
Please don't get overwhelmed with my rambling thoughts - but I think I'm on to something. When an adult abuses a child, it scars that child forever. It literally changes who they are. I do love, passionately and deeply, but I realize I had physiological reactions that had everything to do with that abuse. I couldn't handle certain things. I think I can fix that, now that I know what I'm dealing with - but I'm not going to be able to do it without a counselor helping me deal with it.
So, partly a possible answer to why you're not getting the intimacy you crave, and partly a revelation on my behalf. Wow. We really were meant to "meet". I'm humbled and amazed right now.
I am checking in to read your post which I will think about a little, my notes on your threads are detailed in places and non existent in others, so I have a little extra catch up to do.
Can you fill in a couple of details for me?
Did things change after your sons were born?
How does it behave? Has it a colour or shape does it move, grow, is it ',flame' like or 'cool?' How long does it last? Is it ever in your throat head or chest?
Has your W any family issues and siblings?
I also want to examine the shame issue with you a little more but think it would be better as a separate topic.
I guessed one of your LL might be physical touch! I recognise the issues perhaps because I have had to address them myself.
I also want to address the issue of reciprocation and expectation separately as I actually have quite strong views on this, not just about sex and it might be great if you had a safe person you can share with in real life as sometimes these questions bring stuff up. The reason I am so open about this is that the other has a right to say 'no' and every reason to compromise.
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Let's chat about some of the things that I think are much easier to address as they are beliefs which you have identified which may not be helping you and could be in the way.
I also want to think about your struggle with need and also to address the issue of happiness. I don't see the two things connected at all. Happiness is a mood or feeling, whereas sexual need and physical connection are physiological drivers not emotions. I guess I think maybe some emotional IQ reading might help you. Watching Inside Out might be good if you haven't already. So I think the belief here is intimacy is happiness? If that's not it, what is the belief?
I also don't think W 'checking out' is a big issue either, it is more important to maintain the physiological connection, as physical touch is a limbic requirement and an indicator of safety. Babies when not touched enough 'fail to thrive' and so can adults. This is a biological requirement for some of us to keep our HPA axis in good order and frontal lobe activity. There are of course ways around it for adults who can self soothe, the odd aroma therapy massage is helpful too. Have you tried music? What about dancing? What did you do when dating? You may need to woo W a little, and yes that may mean hoovering in your buff pjs. Have some fun. So what is your belief on W checking out and is it logical? Does it stand up to Scrutiny?
There are a couple of biological knowledge issues as well that can be reviewed. Such as how some women's bodies respond after orgasm. We can be 'touchy' sensitive, I know I am, nothing personal it's how some of us react. Touch my nipples and I would tear your hands off, give me 20 minutes and it's all calm again. There are plenty of books on the physiology of sex kicking about, suggest you get one or borrow one. Sex books are like cookery books, how can you learn to cook a new type of menu without one. It's a core skill, don't guess, learn the techniques for the physiology. Like the right pots and pans for the right cooking, you can't stir fry in a grill pan, or heat soup up by pouring it on a BBQ. Get a couple of books on this, if nothing else it will make you smile!
The hand holding is odd, is this since the children? It might simply be as as mum she has had to get used to handholding in a particular way with one of the boys. You can observe how she is in this if you catch her holding a child's hand.
My remarks about W were precisely to know if you had asked her about her preferences and if you had sensible answers or were you mind reading. My thinking is that you might be guessing based on experience or have you observationally tested. If I do A I get X response 8 out 10 times. If I do B W looks at me very weirdly. You may need to run your own lab experiments on it and ask the questions in a very neutral way. If I were you I would move into neutral observer mode on this. What held true may no longer hold true.
OK let's look at the attraction issue Zephyr, I had this conversation with Edz, a long time ago. My view hasn't really changed, we know one thing is for sure, you were her type, she was attracted to you, you had wild passion and made two boys. So that's a given, she was attracted to you in every way possible. That means since this attraction stuff is imprinting you are still her type. In Edz case he admitted, he had put on weight become a couch potato and was jealous of his own son, light bulb! Edz went about becoming the best he could be and voila, his W was attracted back. In my case I really worry about attracting my WH back, it's rather frightening so I do grey rock which means doing everything to stop being WH type. So knowing you are her type what can you do to be more like her type? If that makes sense!
So you are Mind reading, and your thoughts appear illogical to me about your W and her attraction to you. There V is judging you! That's some belief obstacle, so I reframed it for you.
Let's also look at the phrase 'she felt used'. When we marry and make a commitment to another part of that is having an intimate R and a sexual connection. Things can get in the way, illness for instance. my parents are 94 and 89 and until mums dementia still had sex in their eighties. It is part of a marriage, and yes on occasion we 'use' each other and that's ok. It isn't going to be all rockets and crashing waves, the ordinary stuff is ok. Now I will also explain how it has been for me and I have a gf who claims she has never had the big O, and that's ok, she and her H still rock the hammock. Why is it ok and why isn't it being used? Firstly because we can't all feel like hitting the ceiling every time, there will have been times in my aged Ps M perhaps even as long as a year or more when the Nike principle applied. I had times like those and I didn't feel used. There is a belief here I think that needs reviewing that unless W wants the big O that she is being used? Where does it come from? Has W ever said that? You are just using me for sex or you only want my body? Because absolutely clearly Zephyr in your case the absolutely opposite is true! Do you think the Nike principle can apply?
So how did my aged ps manage this? They scheduled isex, every Tuesday evening and Sunday mornings. I used to make sure I was out of the house and had no guests visiting. And they got on with it. I used the same routine with H1 and H2, sex minimum twice a week, and other than illness or work commitments that was it. That in my book is marriage, and yes doesn't sound romantic and touchy freely, I know that. It is whatever suits the couple could be five times a week, or every leap year, it is that which works. So firstly loose the word used it isn't helpdul to you.
Your interpretation is 'peer at me with eyes of hate' where does that come from? Some horror movie, can we understand this, it has to originate from somewhere. A FOO issue?
Giving her the benefit of the doubt on her motives? zephyr really, are you trying to talk yourself out of this?
Look at the other things you write, reaches for you at night, can you find intimacy in that? Planning nights and weekends? All sounds good to me, of course it could be better so could winning big on the lottery........
Sweetheart just get on with your planning and making each day count. Drop the black and white thinking, some ordinary stuff is just fine.
Is thinking ithat W may be in manipulation going to help you with the intamcy? And Zephyr suppose it really is the absolute worst case scenario, it is manipulation, what is your boundary on it? Will you say 'you fooled me in this, but actually I was putting everything I had into resolving our R. I can move on knowing that I grew and gave my all"
So if you do give your all and it is manipulation what then?
Good i am glad you feel it's ok to say to V "don't go there". One of the benefits in wearing purple with a red hat is that absolutely nothing is sacrosanct. I am English, we say it nicely although sometimes we shouldn't go there!
All I need to know from you is that you have considered the questions and obviously you have to post if you want discussion. Remember this is peer to peer here on the board and all I am doing is passing on the information handed to me, just as you will with the Newbies in due course. Toots RD, Jim, Edz, GreenGrass, Dawn, Zelda (abuse) WhyUs (fins) and many many others helped build reciprocal tool kits. Discussing with others who have different views Mozza for example (I am a huge founder member of the Mozza fan club). And the wonderful Wonka with her absolutely on the nail stuff. And of course DB and DR which I reread every two or three months, plus Sandis guidance or 37 rules which I keep close to hand.
More to follow on the early part of your post. My view Zephyr is yes you want to move very quickly as your need is urgent. It's the limbic call. A little seduction and time will help. Recollect Cadets words you have the gift of time, take it.
Remember too, this stuff is also fun, gentle, routine and a preverbial mixed bag. Messy, hard, annoying, and just goddam it human. Part of Zephyr becoming the man only a fool would leave, and your W does not strike me a fool.
V
Last edited by Vanilla; 01/04/1610:43 PM.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Thank you judy, i appreciate you openness beyond words. I know it is such a delicate topic and it is something that ive found most will not discuss, so thank you.
I have been reading /discussing with many in my shoes on a differt sort of support sight and rhe deprh of the pain from the victims as well as thier spouses is so rediculously deep. Most marriage will not survivw in any real capacity IF therapy is not a commitment for the victim and eventually the spouse too...different than mc. My wife has not seen an ic therapist in years and not for that.
I have nearly begged her to, but she will not. I know there are any number of reasons why not so there is just one more unknown.
As for you, you have reached a point ALREADY that so many refuse to even fathom, and that is some recognition thst there is a connection between CSA and adult relationships. You are light years ahead in the self care aspects and the desire to dig ur ass out of that hole and climb that mountain...bad heart and all.
V, wow just wow. u are unbelievable and ya wonderful. I will read this while thinking, more than a few times as there is alot to take in.
I will bring up any questions that i have for you and continue any discussion as they come up.
One instant comment on the hand hokding thing, many times when the kids try, she will pull her hand away, sometimes with hugs too where you can see a wince when the kids are trying to get close with thier mom.
Wow, i am almost exhasuted from reading all of this and the questions that cause so much thought. Thanks again!
Anyway best wishes from Europe. You are welcome anytime. Hope the football/beer/poker night went well even if I couldn't make it.
I read your thread often so even if I don't post, you know I am there. It us good to see so many people helping you lately. Bet you have loads to think about. At the very least you will get to know yourself better. Good luck.
R 25 years M 14 years S11 & S13 Working on it alone since Oct 2014 M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years) Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr. Next R chat Aug'17 Still together
I am checking in to read your post which I will think about a little, my notes on your threads are detailed in places and non existent in others, so I have a little extra catch up to do.
Can you fill in a couple of for me?
Did things change after your sons were born? Sex slowed down after each pregnancy, but ramped up again when she wanted another.
Wife lost twins pretty early in third pregnancy that her body never recovered from. She had ongoing problems that wventually required a hystorectomy almost 1.5 years after DNC. She lost an ovary due to cysts another year and half latter. Early menopause signs.
How does it behave? Has it a colour or shape does it move, grow, is it ',flame' like or 'cool?' How long does it last? Is it ever in your throat head or chest?
What is the it you are asking about here...i am slow tonight
Has your W any family issues and siblings? Tons. Beside CSA that has been touched on here, her mom was abusive to all the kids. Verbally and minor physical abuse. Fsther was and still is very passive. She is extremely controling to date. Wife was 15 when we started dating, i saw a bunch of it...it tapered off as i was around more.
Wifes younger brother died at the age of 8. Wife still bothered by the accident, fell at a public place. (hmmm, around same age as my oldest son when wife started to turn - am pretty sure her abuse was about that age when wife was almost 8 as well, so another trigger for when my oldest was about 8 - when all this really started about 5 years ago).
She is honestly looking at er interactions with mom. Her sister too. ..that is positive.
I also want to examine the shame issue with you a little more but think it would be better as a separate topic.
I guessed one of your LL might be physical touch! I recognise the issues perhaps because I have had to address them myself.
Yes, touch, acts and qt. I am learning to appreciate gifts and woa so much more.
Even today I have always felt 'intimacy' in my stomach / abdomen. Not just anticipation, but during and after. Feeling the warmth of a woman in my arms and her holding tight. It is the difference between hugging your sister and your college girlfriend.
This is what I was asking about, I have a specific reason for asking.
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You have given me lots of food for thought. I am seeing lots of cross linkages. Including real grief, not just for your twins but for the lost capacity for children. A grief most women come to terms with at menopause.
The loss of her brother, the hand holding may be a subconscious fear or protective mechanism emerging, sneaking under the radar. Hold on tight or loose out. This could be a way of confirming using physical touch.
The abuse is something she will have to handle herself, that's not something you can resolve, although by observing you may find certain things you do especially in her LL give her comfort. That will certainly increase your sense of intimacy and her sense of safety.
Some children do become sexually active early after being abused, it's a form of acting out. Not always useful but in many ways better than the alternative.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Hope you are having a good weekend and that you are giving your brain a rest. You have had s lot to go through recently.YYou don't need to digest it all at once.
Best wishes as ever
R 25 years M 14 years S11 & S13 Working on it alone since Oct 2014 M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years) Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr. Next R chat Aug'17 Still together
Hey roiste. Thanks for checking in. Looooong weekend, will get a post put together at lunch today. I typed a big long post yesterday and deleted it, there was anger there and I needed to consider why before i posted it...was ot justified or just frustration on my part.
