I'm feeling your struggle and confusion on this. I am really am. And I will tell you why.
When your life, well-being and esteem is so tied up in someone else's happiness and unhappiness, the struggle to separate and be an individual is one of the most challenging things of all.
I have a co-dependent personality and choose men I want to caretake and fix. The quality of the men I have chosen has improve considerably over time.
My first high school crush was a dependent cannabis user. When he returned into my life when I was 28, he was in the middle of recovery from a drug induced psychotic episode, with a pending diagnosis of schziophrenia, I nursed him back to health over 24 months, for him to leave the imaginary relationship I had been my head, for a woman who he met online and who lived in another country.
I then fell for a guy who lost his child in an accident that occurred on his work site when he was looking after him. He was grieving his son and loss of his marriage, they were divorced. In that imaginary relationship i had with him, I helped resolve his grief that he returned to his wife and their marriage.
There are a couple more recovering drug addicts in there and then there are my two lovelies I call Mr M - Mr emotionally unavailable, former addict to drugs, was addicted to exercise and a commitment phobe. And then Mr Ex, parapeligic emotionally unavailable, driven to success at all cost. I was loving him and getting him to Rio Olympics 2016.
Why am I telling you all of this. Well dear friend. I thought that if I could just be the most amazing and perfect friend, woman, girlfriend and partner, then these men would all love me and stay with me forever.
Being a helper, a caretaker and fixer in a relationship like I was, is co-dependency at its finest. I was the poster girl. I still am in some ways.
How you describe your relationship with your H, you are so in his business, that when you write I struggle to see the line between your behaviour and his. I am acutally confused about whose behaviour you are asking about his or yours. You two are completely enmeshed.
I am not surprised to hear that you are completely confused. I going to put it out there, is that you have no sense of yourself separate from him. What I see is a woman who cannot make a decision for herself without it being in reference to her H. I get no sense of who Kyrie is outside of her role as a wife and caretaker.
I don't know if anyone has suggested the works of Melody Beattie to you. My suggestion would be that you start looking at your stuff in this picture. Melody's work is unpinned by her relationship and her clients relationship with a high power. So there will be no tension for your related to this issue.
I don't know if you have read Neale Donald Walsch work Conversations with God. But he references rather eloquantly, that each of is the Great I am. Who are you Kyrie? How is Kyrie not being great in and of herself being the best she can be for God?
Something to think about as well. There is a school of thought, that when we continue to engage in a set of behaviours that we know are not benifical to us, there is likely some pay off for doing so.
When I have a very stuck family and I get alot of resistance and, buts and excuses, sometimes I say " So you obviously really like this problem. Why don't you keep this problem a little while longer."
I guess what I am saying, is when you ready to let go of this problem, you will be ready to do what it takes to get there.
Save yourself Kyrie, its the first step. The lessons here are not your H. They are yours.
How do I respond since that's the opposite of my 180?
How's that 180 working out for you???Good point Drew.
DB101 - Do more of what works.
I also feel you should go back and read the books again. It seems you're struggling with some of the basic concepts. yes, even while reading I had many questions. It's hard for me to get time to read them since if he sees what I read he sharpshoots it every time. And he's around much more than I am (because of my work).
Originally Posted By: kyrie
he sincerely seems to want to work on things, it's his method that's the issue.
Actions speak louder than words. When his actions say he wants to work on things ...
In my opinion, he's got it pretty good. You pay the bills, take care of the house and kids, etc. He gets to play, surf porn, visit strip joints, have a mistress, be holier than thou, and blame it all on you. And you just take it.
Like another poster said, maybe he needs a taste of what life would be without you.
How?
Me: 42, H: 38 Married: 12 years (second M for me) 14D, 9D 2015 EA (PA??), porn addict, *pastor/counselor* MLC
At a counselor, he said he wanted the marriage but not to work on himself w/a IC. Piecing?
Thanks for the words of encouragement. The roller coaster is really going strong last week and this week. On the treadmill for the first time in 3 weeks tonight - it's way too cold to run outside right now! You can do it Trumpet! I love to run - outside is great, but yeah, less than 50 degrees is tough.
Your husband is someone who has/had great faith, correct? I attended a lutheran HS,We are Lutheran (Confessional - not liberal like ELCA) was a campus ministry leader, went to youth rallies, play in church (sing/trumpet - duh!) since I was a kid, did chamber choir in college... I'm not a bible-thumper, but those who know me from college know that I was the man to talk to when you wanted to talk about religion - for better or for worse.
All this to say - your husband and I probably have a lot in common.
If he's dealing with what I dealt with, it's that he has to go DEEPER into the porn to get out what he needs to get aroused. Thus, the EA's you talked about. The nudie clubs. It makes sense - it's deeper into the addiction. Need a bigger hit. It also made me more mad and angry at myself that I couldn't stop. I'd be in church on Sunday crying out to God that I'm sorry, and I'd feel his forgiveness, but I'd be back at it, as it got me to cope with my reality. No sex from the wife again? Well, I can take care of that right here... and it felt good. For guys, the release is wonderful, and the stress melts away. The shame fills the holes where the stress was, though. And the shame is cumulative. It blots out all love coming from your spouse and from God.
He knows he needs to stop. He wants to stop - deep down. He knows his anger isn't really him. But the stress to be who he is - a pastor - and the life he's leading behind closed doors is ripping him apart.
It's ripping you apart.
And that's why you need to find help. You want to save your marriage? Save yourself first, and your kids. Saving him will come - his rabbit hole might be a lot deeper than it is now.
This is my opinion, but I'm going to counseling, going to a hidden addictions group, so I have first-hand knowledge. NONE of this made sense until I admitted I couldn't control the addiction, and called it an addiction. My wife's affair started my bottoming out, and realizing I needed help.
I cried again in my counseling session today... not for me, but for my wife, who as of right now is trying to make it back from her EA. I cried because I now see how much pain I caused her, and how I did so much damage to her. How the years piled up, and how worthless she felt, how helpless she was to watch me be addicted to something she didn't understand and couldn't tolerate.It's so great to hear your heart here. It IS painful. Some women do tolerate it - and I actually see Zues's side of this, where some wouldn't consider pornography cheating, since it doesn't involve another person physically, and I never loved the women I watched. They were lovely to look at, but did I ever get to know them? Their real names? No way - that was the 'other' world. He knows there's a loss of emotional connection when we have sex...but surely the porn doesn't provide that either. Other than a sense of control/"freedom".
My wife considers it cheating. Guess what? I have to live with that. She's my wife, and I hurt her. And now I understand. Lots more 'I'm sorry's' in me to come.
My wife is addicted - to OM. It took me 8 weeks to really see the fog lift from my addiction. I have to give her AT LEAST that much time. She needs to get counseling for the EA - someone other than me to tell her what she needs to do. I have all the answers - my pride speaking - but I've done so much research, I'd love to share. I just have to keep my mouth shut, and pray to God that she finds the same sites I do. Ugh. That's difficult. I'm the fixer.Yes, difficult...her actions are damaging to you and your M. I'm so sorry.
Should you stop having sex with him?
How about this question: should you continue to give a drunk a drink? Wait, sex w/your wife is a biblical gift well within God's order and blessing. Not the same.
If he feels empty and hollow due to your sex, he's equating your sex to what he sees on the screen. There is no emotional connection - that is lost on him, due to the addiction. If you have needs, I understand, just realize 90 days is typical for complete withdrawl of symptoms in a pornography addiction. I'm on day 75 I think, and days 40-55 were really tough. My body seems to be much better now. Sex was on my mind a lot in days 40-55. It sounds like you abstained from not just the porn but anything physical w/your wife too (maybe not by choice - or is it?)
I see three things that need attention:
1.) YOU! Take care of you - don't let him spew at you. You need to read the book Boundaries. 2.) Your husband. His addiction. His depression. His anger. 3.) Your marriage.
Just like I'm struggling with my wife, since I can't control the pace at which we fix things, you can't control your husband. Take care of you - be the best Kyrie you've ever thought you could be. Proverbs 31 - give it a read. Know it backwards and forwards, dear Trumpet.
Second, I'd recommend a professional's take on how to help your husband. I was the addict, my wife was the adulterer. Your husband has both going on, so good for you for not having to deal with your own demons.
Speaking of demons - don't just take what you see as weaknesses to the Lord. The Lord is giving you the gift of time and the awareness to know that maybe something needs fixing within YOU. Maybe you're broke, and need fixing as well. Pride is so difficult a sin. We need to have some pride to stand up against the world and what it throws at us, but we need to be humble enough to know we all need HIM. When we're humble, HE speaks to us - in whispers. My own demons are there just not cheap replacements or false imitations, etc. A lack of humility by me is something he has complained and criticized me for a long time. Sometimes its hard to know what he means by that but I think I get it (more).
If your husband is defiant and unwilling to change, you can't change it. But talking to someone other than the Bishop might start the ball rolling.
FYI: I take an SSRI - lexapro. Took it when I had difficulty with emotions after getting out of college. It makes me the real 'trumpet', not someone who's always high one minute on happiness, and debbie downer the next. It's a small dose, but it helps - a lot. It also decreases libido - another topic for another day! Does your husband take something? No. He wouldn't go to anyone else. He doesn't have any *real* issues, according to his own diagnosis, remember?
Me: 42, H: 38 Married: 12 years (second M for me) 14D, 9D 2015 EA (PA??), porn addict, *pastor/counselor* MLC
At a counselor, he said he wanted the marriage but not to work on himself w/a IC. Piecing?
What I meant to type previously was, "Based on DB principles, there's not a lot you and he can do together to piece the marriage..."
Obviously there are things you can do on your own.
Any examples? If you've read this far, you'll see I'm kinda dense. I need concrete stuff, not concepts. I grasp concepts but practice is another issue.
Me: 42, H: 38 Married: 12 years (second M for me) 14D, 9D 2015 EA (PA??), porn addict, *pastor/counselor* MLC
At a counselor, he said he wanted the marriage but not to work on himself w/a IC. Piecing?
I will keep my retort short in comparison with how strongly I feel it: I don't believe H's porn use 'requires attention'. Not your circus. Your choices, your boundaries, your behavior...sure. Not his. Interventions, walking away to try to concoct a rock bottom, none of this has anything to do with DB principles. There are a lot of people out there with a lot of advice, but this is a DB forum and I try to make it clear when my advice differs from that of Michelle's.
The question about sex still boils down to the question both I and 25 posted...is porn use something that equates to divorce? It isn't for everyone, so it really is your choice. It IS hard to sort through this when your M stinks, and you have unmet needs, and the road ahead looks impossible. It almost looks like the ticket out so you don't have to deal with this, and you can just find the next marriage.
For me, all I can say is this: Either your partner is irreplaceable, or they are replaceable.
Do you want a relationship with someone that is irreplaceable, and that thinks you're irreplaceable? Or are you ok with a series of 5-10 year relationships that burn bright for a while until they get difficult and don't work out the way you want, so find the reason to bail and find someone else?
Clearly abuse and ongoing adultery is a deal breaker. Just be sure you understand the consequences of the choice you make to lump porn in with serial cheating. Not only will it end your marriage, irreplaceability cannot be replaced, ever.
So...to the sex. If you aren't willing to stay with him, and you look down at him for what he's doing, then I can see why he'd feel it's dishonest. Sex=acceptance/approval/admiration/love for a man, if that's not there then it would feel dissatisfying. Nothing to do with your inability to compare to a screen IMHO. A screen can't give him that. You can. But if you DON'T, then a screen would give him the illusion of something you aren't giving him. If that makes sense. So no, if you're feeling used and he's feeling empty, I don't see the point.
If, however, you decide that he is a great man...not WAS a great man...not COULD BE IF HE...but that NOW, even with his imperfections, he still is a great man, and you want to be his wife, and love him, and support him through thick and thin...then sex makes sense. And if you felt that way, and told him that, that you don't like it, but you love him, and that he's your lifelong partner, and you will die with him unless he leaves you, and if he wants to quit you'd love that and would support him in any way you can, but if he doesn't you'll stick with him to the end, and love him forever, and you'd love to show him that by giving yourself to him in every way you can...I doubt he would find THAT dishonest, and in fact would probably love it. He may not believe it. He may test it to see if he can catch you in an act. But that's what he needs from you, if you are going to stay his wife.
Some of the things you've said here are not what I'm about or experiencing...not trying to argue but I don't think you've got it on some parts. I haven't said anything about divorcing him *because of the porn*. It's an issue, but I know I can't force him to do anything and have to accept him where he is right now. So that's not the issue. I don't want a replacement anyway. If I did D, no replacement. Maybe someday that could somehow change but it's not how marriage should be and who would want a twice-divorced, twice cheated on co-dependent anyway. Well, another cheater/addict, perhaps, but no thanks. You've made a valid argument that forcing a rock bottom seems like a nuclear bomb - total destruction and outside my responsibilities, etc. And yes, of course I want the irreplaceable - that's what I've admired about your behaviors and views here Zues. He himself, on some levels, shares the same beliefs. So shame is a big element here. But he has compartmentalized and made a double life - maybe he can live with that forever but he's a good enough man that it's probably eating at him too. But I dunno. I know and accept imperfections - they go with the territory of being human and in a sinful world. I get that. Seeing him self destruct and taking us along for the ride is pretty rough. He knows I'm here through thick & thin (we've talked about how I've accepted that this is where he is right now and if I wanted to D, I would have done so already) - I think that's why he feels free to $hit on me so much. And he knows I'm interested & available - that's really not at issue. So he needs far more...probably more than any woman or person can ever give.
Me: 42, H: 38 Married: 12 years (second M for me) 14D, 9D 2015 EA (PA??), porn addict, *pastor/counselor* MLC
At a counselor, he said he wanted the marriage but not to work on himself w/a IC. Piecing?
I really don't have a problem with my *own* identity. I know who I am and especially who I am in Christ Jesus, the only true source of identity and value. Being a wife is VERY important to me-that's totally true. The vocation of husband/wife are second only to child of God.
So I have to tell you all about today/tonight. Today, I made appointments w/a DB coach *tentatively* on Friday. Hopefully work will let that happen.... and I made an appointment with a local IC (via a work-related program where you get a few counseling sessions for free - hopefully they're any good. He'll probably sharpshoot every single thing...but it's none of his business (snort - there's a ironic pun) right now. That's set for the end of the month - only time I could get. Anyway, I had made up my mind to basically occupy myself with stuff tonight. After the girls went to bed, he went out into the garage and is still there now. Banging away at something - he keeps buying stuff *ALL THE FREAKING TIME*... money has been on his mind more lately, and he's spent it a LOT. This is kinda new. Anyway, so no spew - and I didn't even say anything.
Me: 42, H: 38 Married: 12 years (second M for me) 14D, 9D 2015 EA (PA??), porn addict, *pastor/counselor* MLC
At a counselor, he said he wanted the marriage but not to work on himself w/a IC. Piecing?
Glad you're posting on newcomers now. Threads are filling up like crazy!
I know a lot of people are posting and everyone's got their own views. It might seem like a lot of noise sometimes. I hope you are getting something out of it and some support as well. I commend you for your commitment and hope there is some peace in the middle of this for you. Goodnight.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Thanks Zues. It was a good night. This morning, the spew started up again w/texts: "Nice effort. Glad to see we're making progress" 5 minutes later: "I'm so fed up w/this. Nothing changes - it just gets worse." No response to that. It's his standard lines.
Me: 42, H: 38 Married: 12 years (second M for me) 14D, 9D 2015 EA (PA??), porn addict, *pastor/counselor* MLC
At a counselor, he said he wanted the marriage but not to work on himself w/a IC. Piecing?
