Here I am still

[25yearsmlc]

Kyrie it seems to me that, to an extent, you are asking us theological questions.

I feel that we cannot answer those for you. Plus, I wouldn't know how to assess repentance in someone else.

I have a few questions for you. 1) Do you know how your h's family was, with the issue of forgiveness? (In other words, did your h see forgiveness and or redemption, in his childhood?)

And growing up in your family, did You see forgiveness? IF So, what did it look like?


Below, you concede Zeus's point, but then say "BUT", which usually means the clause preceding the word, is to be discounted. You are saying the sin of an affair "of the eyes" is unacceptable if he's not repentant.

Just so that I'm clear, you're saying that in a strong monogamous marriage, temptation won't be a struggle for either partner, b/c a h (or wife) won't even look at another with attraction?

Is that^^ accurate? I'm not judging it. I'm trying to make sure I have clarity.
I know you have a lot to process.

What does that word mean to you?

(still reading through everything) but realized something: 2 priciples are opposing each other and they both keep me feeling like I'm going against my own principles.
1. As many, esp. Zues has said,marraige is more important than the specific sins (each of ours)

but

2. An affair, including affair of the eyes (biblically speaking - and he has the same belief here) is unacceptable. Unrepentance is unacceptable. An affair can be forgiven. Unrepentance cannot.
So that's what it comes down to.
I've long felt like just being straight and asking: are you repentant? Because in the end, biblically, that's what makes the difference.
I don't want to live a double life. A fake life. It's killing me.
SO much to process.

When you say something is "Unacceptable", (please see my LONG note to you about that concept)...you have said it more than once. That word has implications but

like any unenforced boundary, those can be overlooked or reconsidered or renegotiated...or fought over, endlessly.

To me, it means Either you stay married and let it go, (not throwing it in his face again and not judging him or calling him out on his "sins");

or you stay married and keep bringing it up... possibly letting every happy moment be polluted by the past...

OR you get out...

Kyrie, you do have choices here. None of your choices are easy. Each choice presented is very difficult, I know. But they are not complicated.


I do not know you well enough to assess this situation, but I know that sometimes people use religion as a tool for avoiding the harder choices, or for staying stuck, or judging others. I do NOT say that you have done this. I'm Just saying, it's happened.

I spent a lot of my first year here being self righteous. Thing is, morally, I can say I probably was "right". But being "right" is not really the priority.

Hence the question, "do you want to be right - or do you want to be married?"

--And hopefully, happy--?

Remember to Be the author of your life. You deserve to be.

[trumpet]

Brillant, 25yearsmlc.

[kyrie]

Kyrie it seems to me that, to an extent, you are asking us theological questions.[color:#3366FF]
Theology matters - it makes a difference how we process things and how we make decisions.

I feel that we cannot answer those for you. Plus, I wouldn't know how to assess repentance in someone else. That's why we have to *say* it.

I have a few questions for you. 1) Do you know how your h's family was, with the issue of forgiveness? (In other words, did your h see forgiveness and or redemption, in his childhood?) Can't say for sure, but probably not. We were raised with it in the Church, but processing it for oneself is another matter entirely. I learned that at one point and it opened my eyes spiritually.

And growing up in your family, did You see forgiveness? IF So, what did it look like? Again, not much within the family, but within the Church, yes.


Below, you concede Zeus's point, but then say "BUT", which usually means the clause preceding the word, is to be discounted. You are saying the sin of an affair "of the eyes" is unacceptable if he's not repentant.
The "but" is because I see both equally. Not dismissing/discounting. Both are equal, and therefore conflicting for me.

Just so that I'm clear, you're saying that in a strong monogamous marriage, temptation won't be a struggle for either partner, b/c a h (or wife) won't even look at another with attraction? No. Everyone is tempted, I get that. It's what we believe and do about the temptation that makes the difference for the believer. Everyone struggles. Do you struggle or ignore conscience, ignore everything and just embrace it? That's why we're told repeatedly to "flee temptation", "repent". It's not that we can avoid the temptation. It's what we do about it. This is also H's belief as well, at least on paper anymore.

Is that^^ accurate? I'm not judging it. I'm trying to make sure I have clarity.
I know you have a lot to process.

What does that word mean to you? Sorry, which word??
[/color]

(still reading through everything) but realized something: 2 priciples are opposing each other and they both keep me feeling like I'm going against my own principles.
1. As many, esp. Zues has said,marriage is more important than the specific sins (each of ours)

but

2. An affair, including affair of the eyes (biblically speaking - and he has the same belief here) is unacceptable. Unrepentance is unacceptable. An affair can be forgiven. Unrepentance cannot.
So that's what it comes down to.
I've long felt like just being straight and asking: are you repentant? Because in the end, biblically, that's what makes the difference.
I don't want to live a double life. A fake life. It's killing me.
SO much to process.

When you say something is "Unacceptable", (please see my LONG note to you about that concept)...you have said it more than once. That word has implications but

like any unenforced boundary, those can be overlooked or reconsidered or renegotiated...or fought over, endlessly.

To me, it means Either you stay married and let it go, (not throwing it in his face again and not judging him or calling him out on his "sins"); [color:#FF0000]I hear you recommending this one ...so are you really saying that it just doesn't matter? How does that reconcile with what Jesus Christ himself says about adultery??

or you stay married and keep bringing it up... possibly letting every happy moment be polluted by the past...No, I know that's not healthy or good. I dont want to do that.

OR you get out...Is that it?

Kyrie, you do have choices here. None of your choices are easy. Each choice presented is very difficult, I know. But they are not complicated.


I do not know you well enough to assess this situation, but I know that sometimes people use religion as a tool for avoiding the harder choices, or for staying stuck, or judging others. I do NOT say that you have done this. I'm Just saying, it's happened.For me it's not about "judgement". It's about dealing with the brokeness (not just the symptom, but adultery is "adultery" - it weakens, mixes in something that *DOES NOT BELONG* and is a cancer. I know I have no righteousness of my own. I KNOW and admit that I've contributed to a bad relationship.

I spent a lot of my first year here being self righteous. Thing is, morally, I can say I probably was "right". But being "right" is not really the priority.

Hence the question, "do you want to be right - or do you want to be married?"

--And hopefully, happy--?
Look, I get that. I really do. I just don't know how to manage all the pain of it, nor "letting go" sometimes. THAT'S what I keep asking for.

Remember to Be the author of your life. You deserve to be.
[/color]

[kyrie]

Kyrie,

I spent yesterday rereading all of your threads. I know I "disappeared". So did you. Sometimes we just need a break from this place. Especially those of us further down the road.

I am going to be honest and you may wish I didn't return.

I see that not much has changed in any way what so ever since you began posting.

Your H is still doing his thing, whatever that may be.

You...are still doing yours...in the same way you were doing it 6 months ago.

What I see is that you are still looking for the "correct" thing to say or do to make this all be different.

There is no magic pill, as I hope you are beginning to figure out.I get that. I also get that I'm doing things all wrong, apparently. Even though I HAVE done many things differently. Consistency has been problematic...the advice MWD says is to try different things & go with what works...haven't been successful.

So you want to know what to do...

Everyone posting to you is telling you the same thing, some almost pleading with you because they feel your pain and know what worked for them. They are telling you to focus on yourself. Make changes within yourself. Work on KYRIE. Roger, got it, ok, sir yes sir.

REGARDLESS of how your H reacts.

Here is a secret that I didn't see mentioned anywhere.

If you try to make changes, try to validate, try 180's, etc...

UNLESS those changes etc are GENUINE, CONSISTENT, and become A PART OF THE NEW YOU...

Your H will see them as a trick or manipulation. (Which is how he is going to see them initially anyway and try to test you to see if he can bring out the "old Kyrie".

They also won't last because they are NOT a part of who you want to become.

So then they truely are fake. Just like he is accusing you of.

Changes HAVE to be for you. In order for them to stick.
again, got it. It's hard to change one's stripes, as they say, so I'm *TRYING*

Additionally, you keep talking about confession and repenting and you say you have done that regarding your mistakes. You say that like that is all you have to do and all is better.NOpe. It's just the first step - part of the listening with the spew jacket on, STFU and listen (as I understood it?)

What I feel you are missing is that when we repent of things, behaviors, etc...we can't keep repeating those behaviors or we haven't truly repented. WE MUST MAKE CHANGES. All we have done is said the words we think we are supposed to say. And I see that in your behavior.

(BTW, you don't have to confess everything to your H. Confess it to GOD.) done

Additionally, I see you still score keeping your H. Yes he is making choices you don't like right now. Things that in your opinion are sins. Grevious errors.

It isn't up to you to judge him. It isn't up to any other human being to judge him. That is something between him and his God.

The only thing you can do is decide if you can accept someone in your life who is acting so contrary to the type of person you want in your life or not.

And then you act based on what you are willing to accept or not.

I will keep checking in on you although I believe you are getting good solid advice, as you have all along.

Focus on YOU. Make changes for YOU. Work on your boundaries. Stop snooping (yes I recognize that you still have much intel that your H did not provide you.) Stop being judgemental. Stop waiting for your H to change in order for you to make changes. Stop worrying about what he thinks of you.

Become someone that YOU like. Someone that YOU are happy with.
Someone that YOU want to spend time with.

Your H will either see it over time and decide to join you, or he will continue down his path, whatever that may be for him.

You can do this if you make the choice.

PS...reread DB again. You still don't have a great grasp of the concepts, so you are confused as to how this can help YOU.
yeah, tricky but yeah. I actually grabbed a copy of "Sex Starved Wife" recently from the library. Probably not the best focus but MWD does address porn/adultery in it.... Gonna start a new thread on last night's stuff.

[job]

New thread:

Last night

[kyrie]

Kyrie:

As an active Christian who's dealt with your husband's issue let me offer this:

1. He will not change until he understands that he will lose his family over this. I strongly suggest you move in with a family friend, with the kids, tell him it's because of the strippers/porn and break all contact for 2 weeks.

2. Do not answer calls, emails or texts.

3. After 2 weeks ask to meet him at a neutral location. Discuss meeting with a counsellour to discuss your marital issues. If he does not change then you will have to decide how you want to proceed.

For me an addiction wouldn't be a deal breaker. I personally don't consider porn a form of cheating as there is no interaction with another person. In fact, I think walking away from a marriage is a much bigger and more damaging act. You talk about impact on the kids, which would be more damaging, his watching porn, or the destruction of a family? But this truly is just me. It's your journey.

All I know is if you legitimately would prefer being single to living with a husband that uses porn, you need to be clear on a few things. The steps above...I'd say you'd have to know "how you want to proceed" well in advance of taking these actions, and this is only something I'd recommend if you were planning on filing on day 15. I think doing this with any expectation of him changing is delusional and destructive. Sounds a bit like the LRT to me. Here's a question for you Zues, Trumpet (and anyone else who's still playing along): I've considered some of the things you've said specifically about sex and porn. I've tried to physically connect with him as much as possible (nightly) to varying degrees of success. More and more he says he feels empty and dishonest. Seems like that's a natural consequence of our lack of emotional connection and also of guilt. Would it be better to *not* have sex in this sitch?

Note I said "prefer being single". There are two mistakes people make. One is to assume their current marriage will never improve. Another is to assume they will meet someone else that will be better for them. If you're comparing your current marriage at it's worst to a fantasy of what you hope to find, it won't look very appealing. The question is, what could your marriage look like if things improved with time...and is that worth destroying. Not the marriage of today...the marriage you guys can achieve in time, with the grace of God.

That's the nice thing about going slow. Maybe you can't see the road from here to a better M. You don't have to. You just have to put one foot in front of the other, do your best for you, and have faith that if you follow that path it will take you where you need to be.