Here I am still

[ARose]

Kyrie, for all you know the spew is all about his own shame and remorse. You have no idea what is really going on in his head, and you may never know.

All you really know for sure right now is that you and your H are in crisis as individuals and as a couple. Take the advice you have been given. Don't think about H's repentance right now or his sins. Take the space and time you need to do your own healing, and maybe H will do the same. Maybe he will not. Time will tell. In the meantime, his repentance and his fall from grace are not of your concern. That is between him and God. You will know when/if he has resolved his issues. And it won't happen soon.

Please take the advice you have been given, and know that it has been given with love and from experience.

[kyrie]

[color:#3333FF]Hi kyrie

Main issues in your eyes are porn, possible EA/PA and lousy treatment AND he says he's miserable and isn't sure he wants to be married. Are there any other issues from your standpoint?

-those are enough. Again he's always had depression and control/anger issues. Always. And his complaint has always been that I haven't been a good enough wife - don't listen, am not submissive enough, don't do things *exactly* as he wants them/consistently. Those are the main ones.

PREDICTING HIS reaction is a useless path. You're not a fortune teller but even if you were, you just attached your expectation of HIS reaction to how you will behave.

NOT a good dynamic.

Detaching stops that dynamic.

-it's predictable because Been there done that. Daily. Rinse. Repeat.

[color:#3333FF]
Here is a plan I gave to someone here, and they said it helped them, so maybe it'll help you.

Having a PLAN means you need a GOAL, and a plan to achieve that goal. But the goal cannot be to reconcile with your h, for now.

The goal FOR NOW must be exclusively about your own growth as a woman. Become a wife only a fool would leave. Becoming the best woman you can become. DEFINE that in specific terms you understand.

Get some "mantras" or inspiring quotes for yourself, and SAY them out loud to yourself several times a day.

Watch the TED TAlk videos about positive psychology and the real data they present about how WE can change our lives from the inside...(Amy Cuddy and Sean Achor were the speakers and each is about 20 min. Easy to listen to them and potentially life changing).

Turn your marriage over to God, to free yourself to just work on YOU.

Behave in healthy confident ways and eventually, you will FEEL healthier and more confident. In TIME, your life will improve.

The improved life you create for yourself must and will be enough for you.

What your h does or believes about the new wonderful you, is far beyond your control.
Any efforts on your end to affect HIS perceptions/reactions, are for nothing. They are wasted energy.

That energy (the energy spent on worrying about Him OR in trying to convince him of anything about you) is a waste of energy.

Spend ALL of your energy on becoming the best woman & mother you can become. The reality of who you become, will suffice. It MUST suffice.

If he believes you are a purple lesbian dinosaur from Mars, you may not be able to change that belief but you cannot let it change the reality that you are a woman with great qualities.
His beliefs will NOT be based on reality, his "data" about you will be false.

That fact, that you become a better woman and wife (for someone) has to be enough for you. Because it is real.
He wil notice it and he will SAY he doubts it.

Maybe that's b/c before now, it wouldn't have been a "Change", it would have been a "tactic" to get him back. But the past, passed. It's not longer real.
You are becoming a woman only a fool would leave, NOT to win him back but b/c you want to self actualize. You're a believer (as am I). This self actualization and becoming our best selves is God's will, don't you think?

I hear you and have been working that for a long time now. As far as "becoming our best selves"... well, only Jesus Christ does that, but that's a different discussion. :-)

[kyrie]

From 25yearsmlcKyrie,



I know you think your situation is uniquely difficult & overwhelming. The good news is that's it's not.


-it is actually. He strongly believes that a husband is the head of the house. Actually, I strongly believe that too. What that looks like in day-to-day reality is where things get crazy. Apparently, this is somewhat unique today. I'm not going to go against that principle. SO, that means certain operating functions/principles at play here are... difficult/unclear. Or I'm still just really dense. Or all of the above.
What's more is that he has the same belief. But, he's also living a double life, of sorts.



The only SEMI unique factor is that your h is a pastor. (There have been others. And many many WAS's use their religion to justify leaving, and many LBSers use religion to justify judging their spouses.)

Anyway, if you are the sole provider then you know leaving him takes out a lot of the financial fears many women have. That is also good news. I strongly recommend seeing a Lawyer just for information. You need "do" nothing but gain information.

But knowledge is power. It made me realize I was choosing to work on my m, not trapped in it.

When you realize how much choice you really do have, it's empowering.


-realizing that part of it is rather meaningless for me, but if it came down to it, yeah, I'd be fine financially. But that's not the point.

PORN -

I would also point out the huge spectrum of what "porn" is, b/c there's quite a variety.

I'm not pushing my opinion of porn onto you.

But here are a few realizations that have worked for me, though porn was not a significant issue in my m.

1) Re porn, SOME COUPLES get a lot out of it & they enjoy it, when it's done together. Or at least the wives don't seem to mind it. One woman said "I don't care where he gets his appetite, as long as he comes home for 'dinner'."

There is no hiding or deceit involved. If you think about it, that factor is pretty applicable to most of our married life & behaviors, really i.e., if your spouse would be hurt by the behavior, avoid it.

Doesn't sound like "watching together" is an option for you. Or is it?

- this would fall outside of what is biblically acceptible or even healthy, and just from my perspective as a woman, *ew*.

AND we don't know what type of porn this is.

Yes, actually, we do. Mostly what you call soft porn. Soft porn is broader that what you describe here, but we'll go with your description. And yes, it's solely to his 'pleasure', self-pleasure/self-love. Despite my ever-present availability and openness (and frankly desire) for him. It is REJECTION OF ME for a false, cheap, empty substitute.

There's "Soft porn" that has actual dialogue in it, which suggests mutual consent, (and of course, perfectly "performed" sex).

I think it's one thing to know your h saw a photo or film clip of someone that turned him on, and led him back to bed with you,

AND quite another thing for him to misuse porn, by either:

a) watching porn that involves overt pain to, or lack of consent from the woman. That's just plain scary to most of us.
OR

b) the spouse uses porn to keep his urges to himself and denies his wife sexual intimacy b/c he took care of his own needs, and didn't feel "obligated" to meet hers.

That^^ second behavior is why porn is so attractive to adolescent males who have no girlfriend or "outlet" for their hormonal urges.

Sooooo, does his porn use require a divorce?

(Is there ANY flaw in a spouse that 'REQUIRES" a divorce? Most would say physical abuse requires leaving the home or kicking the abuser out. I think we'd probably all agree there. )

But most marital issues are not quite so clean cut and clear.

I don't know many women who would leave their h's solely b/c he watched porn; but if he denied his wife intimacy because of it, then many would leave.

For you, however, there's a lot more to this situation than porn. Correct?

-oh yeah, a lot more.

Can you outline briefly, what the "bad" behaviors are and how important they are to you?

My DB coach told me once that if h engages in "an undesirable behavior and which he KNOWS I don't want him to engage in, I have to choose between

leaving him b/c it's that important to me, OR STFU.

Because staying married and continuing to criticize the "bad behavior" helps no one. it's like saying "stay married AND stay miserable".

- I have no desire to be critical and have tried to eliminate that as a behavior. Zues rightly pointed out that I'm mirroring him and it is poison. I get that. Do you really need me to outline his bad behaviors? Mainly I'd just be thrilled that 1 - he was sorry about the affair and 2 stopped blaming me and attacking me endlessly.

There is another choice...

2) You stay and become happy, by GAL and Detaching from your h's behavior, and enjoying the parts of the marriage you can enjoy. That might be just the parenting for now, or it may lead you to leave the m....in TIME. OR he may see your inner peace and decide he wants to be part of that...and so, he changes...

But you will be better off, regardless.

My question for you is this:

IF nothing in your h's behavior improves, do you want to stay married to him? Think about this deeply. There is little to no reason to believe he will change while married to you. You cannot change him. Period.

(And You can't get your "allies" or his superiors to change him either. Believe me, I had h's bff's calling, and his brother, and it never helped me. In fact, it bugged h a lot. Plus, the more his choices were challenged, the more he defended the choices and or attacked me...

Is the real reason you are staying in the marriage, b/c deep down you think you might have flaws that are causing a lot of this ---or that you are not truly worthy of being loved deeply--

OR b/c your pride doesn't want you to admit you've chosen poorly, again?

- I'm sure all of those are at play. I'm not even sure I can answer about staying married if things don't improve. I'm suffocating. Dunno if anyone can continue the way I have. Wow, that sounds like a martyr, and that's not helpful. Just sayin'. And below, I hear you that sometimes it takes the other spouse leaving... that's what I keep coming back to... and why I'm so confused.

There are couples who divorce and remarry, and the 2nd time is better. I've got 2 family members who did just that. They were apart for a few years and each person worked on themselves. Sometimes it takes being left, in order to really get your act together.

I'm not suggesting this as a tactic, merely making an observation.

And FWIW My h and I do NOT agree on our marital past. That bothered me a great deal, for a long time.

Now, I choose to believe that what matters most is agreeing on our future.

-it's funny what you said about divorce & remarrying again. His folks did that, but did not solve their problems and divorced later. I wonder if he thinks that's a plan.

[kyrie]

Some of you hav mentioned taking time for healing. I guess I don't know how to heal *completely* without either ending it or his apology. It is fake without one of those.
Vanilla, walking away fuels his rage big time. Been there, done that. That's why he'll wake me in the middle of the night to spew at me.
For the most part the girls are shielded from the brunt of the spewing. They sense the tension and some things but not the truth.

[ARose]

Kyrie, my H used to wake me in the middle of the night to spew. I learned to move into one of the kids beds and lock the door behind me. The last time H had a full-on spew towards me I told him it was time to think about leaving. Since then he has calmed down quite a bit and I have detached. He still spews, but maybe at 10% of the level he did before. I still listen and pull out the grains of truth and validate his feelings. If I find myself reacting I leave and go for a walk. Months ago, if I did that, h would have blocked my exit or continued the spew when I returned. Now, there are times he catches himself and will leave and go for his own walk and return much calmer. It has taken almost a year to get to this point.

I am very well on my way towards healing and I have not left my H nor have I received an apology. But I have learned that I am more than a wife. I am a mother, daughter, sister, friend, and an individual. Yes, I want to be a wife, and yes I feel that something is missing while I am in limbo. But I am ok and I can move forward in every other aspect of my life while H figures out his issues. I am hopeful, and the stronger I feel as an individual, the less I expect from H.

My "plan" is to continue to thrive in every aspect of my life that I can, and to act in a loving but non-reactive way to H in the meantime. If he comes out of this and is "healed" and expresses a genuine interest in reconciling, then maybe we can build a great marriage. If he doesn't I can live with a flawed partner and be ok. If he gets any worse, as in starts cheating again, starts the spew again (I believe it was at an abusive level) then I will initiate a separation. If we end up divorced I will be ok. I will not initiate a divorce, but I will initiate a separation if living with him is unhealthy for me. And by unhealthy, I mean refusing to respect my basic boundaries, such as screaming in my face, cheating on me, and blocking my exit from a room if I need space. My standards are not that high but there are some basics that I need for my own emotional health.

You can do this Kyrie. You are very resistant, but I promise you, you can do this.

[Vanilla]

Kyrie

Whatever any of us says to you, is discounted, dismissed and negated.

At the core of all of our messages is Kyrie work on you.

You can't listen to, walk away from or disbelieve WH.

You don't like the addictions or the porn or that's what you say.

You don't believe your children are affected?


I can only conclude you tolerate your current sitch and thus are able to justify staying with WH by minimising and denying.

You certainly are stuck where you are so it must be the best of all the choices.

Then I ask what do you want?

If you don't want change and the advice you are being given is negated, what can we do to help you?

V

[kyrie]

Kyrie

Whatever any of us says to you, is discounted, dismissed and negated.[/qoute] -Ouch. I hear you, but am unable to reconcile opposing ideas/principles. So yeah, I'm confused - and dense.

At the core of all of our messages is Kyrie work on you.

You can't listen to, walk away from or disbelieve WH.

Close. I do listen (try...not perfect there). *can't* walk away from. Disbelieve, yeah, I do, but discerning what to disbelieve is tricky.
[quote]
You don't like the addictions or the porn or that's what you say.

You don't believe your children are affected?

- not sure why you said "or that's what you say."

I can only conclude you tolerate your current sitch and thus are able to justify staying with WH by minimising and denying.

You certainly are stuck where you are so it must be the best of all the choices.

Then I ask what do you want?

I want a holy marriage. I want to be loved (though I know that's a longer term goal). Pretty simple. I DO want to change and HAVE, but I know I have far to go still. Obviously.
There are a lot of confusing things here. I really don't know how to live "lovingly" but detached in the ways that you describe, mostly because H will not tolerate it.
So yes, I get that I need to work on me. I need specifics, esp. when certain eventual conversations happen. THAT's where I need the most help.

[ARose]

Kyrie, take some time. Let it sink in. It is a journey and it takes awhile to grasp these concepts. Take a deep breath and just sit with these ideas for a while. Read and re-read the advice people have given you. It's ok, you don't need to respond immediately, you don't need to defend or explain yourself or find the answer tonight.

I think you are reacting on this forum the same way you react with your H. Take some time, slow it down, its ok. We aren't going anywhere, we will be here tomorrow and next week and next month and heck, half of us will still be here next year because this is a long journey. Slow down and let it sink in.

[Abe31]

Kyrie:

As an active Christian who's dealt with your husband's issue let me offer this:

1. He will not change until he understands that he will lose his family over this. I strongly suggest you move in with a family friend, with the kids, tell him it's because of the strippers/porn and break all contact for 2 weeks.

2. Do not answer calls, emails or texts.

3. After 2 weeks ask to meet him at a neutral location. Discuss meeting with a counsellour to discuss your marital issues. If he does not change then you will have to decide how you want to proceed.

[Zues126]

Kyrie:

As an active Christian who's dealt with your husband's issue let me offer this:

1. He will not change until he understands that he will lose his family over this. I strongly suggest you move in with a family friend, with the kids, tell him it's because of the strippers/porn and break all contact for 2 weeks.

2. Do not answer calls, emails or texts.

3. After 2 weeks ask to meet him at a neutral location. Discuss meeting with a counsellour to discuss your marital issues. If he does not change then you will have to decide how you want to proceed.

For me an addiction wouldn't be a deal breaker. I personally don't consider porn a form of cheating as there is no interaction with another person. In fact, I think walking away from a marriage is a much bigger and more damaging act. You talk about impact on the kids, which would be more damaging, his watching porn, or the destruction of a family? But this truly is just me. It's your journey.

All I know is if you legitimately would prefer being single to living with a husband that uses porn, you need to be clear on a few things. The steps above...I'd say you'd have to know "how you want to proceed" well in advance of taking these actions, and this is only something I'd recommend if you were planning on filing on day 15. I think doing this with any expectation of him changing is delusional and destructive.

Note I said "prefer being single". There are two mistakes people make. One is to assume their current marriage will never improve. Another is to assume they will meet someone else that will be better for them. If you're comparing your current marriage at it's worst to a fantasy of what you hope to find, it won't look very appealing. The question is, what could your marriage look like if things improved with time...and is that worth destroying. Not the marriage of today...the marriage you guys can achieve in time, with the grace of God.

That's the nice thing about going slow. Maybe you can't see the road from here to a better M. You don't have to. You just have to put one foot in front of the other, do your best for you, and have faith that if you follow that path it will take you where you need to be.