Here I am still

[kyrie]

Kyrie, no, you don't say you are dropping the rope. You just drop it. Its not like you are leaving him, you are still his w, but you are managing your own emotions. Don't get into it with him, just do it. Especially with your H, he will want to argue with you about it. Just do it.

If only it were that simple. Again, he *wants* to hash all this out. There's no way to avoid it.

[ARose]

Kyrie, it is a hard concept to get. For a while I thought I was "dropping the rope" but what I was really doing was detaching and withdrawing. I'd feel better, but I'd be more avoiding H, and then I'd get pulled back in. Which is normal. Finally something just clicked and I realized that I had to drop the rope while at the same time still loving H. Dropping the rope does not mean avoiding him. It means not letting your emotions be tethered to his. You are still acting in a loving way, but you are happy and content and "ok" whether he is having a bad day or a great day. You own your own emotions.

When your child is having a 2 year old temper tantrum, does it ruin your whole day? Do you get on the floor and cry with the 2 year old, or do you make sure she is in a safe place, and stand by and let her work it out? If you hear something in her crying that is "real", like for example maybe she needs a snack or a band aid or something that you can provide that is a real need, then you step in and provide, but if she is crying because she a 2 year old and feeling intense emotions and needs to just let it out, you let her at it and you don't make it about you, right? Then when she is done, you give her a hug and continue with your day, right? That is dropping the rope. You are still loving, you are still aware of what the child needs and willing to provide for genuine needs, but you are not participating in the tantrum. I do not mean to imply that your H is a 2 year old, I do not mean to judge him. Its just an analogy.

You can be very loving AND non -reactive. I am sure you do it with your children. It can be done. You can play "10" cards and not get anything in return and still be ok emotionally, non-reactive and taking care of your own emotional state.

[ARose]

Kyrie, no, you don't say you are dropping the rope. You just drop it. Its not like you are leaving him, you are still his w, but you are managing your own emotions. Don't get into it with him, just do it. Especially with your H, he will want to argue with you about it. Just do it.

If only it were that simple. Again, he *wants* to hash all this out. There's no way to avoid it.

Kyrie, it doesn't matter what he wants. If you do not want to be on the receiving end of the spew, then get away from him. If you can't do this emotionally, then maybe you need to do it physically. Your first responsibility is for your own emotional health. You cannot be of help to anyone if you can not take care of yourself emotionally.

[kyrie]

FO2, thank you. With the 2year old analogy, it's always about me and it's not just letting it out.
What do I say when he spews and expects me to answer/expects me to apologize for everything, and when I remove myself physically, he continues. It all comes back to his narrative that I'm controlling things, which appears valid.

[trumpet]

Tell him you're done having the conversation, and leave the room.

If he stalks you around the house, leave the house. Come back in an hour.

It sounds like you have trouble setting a boundary.
Key point - I've struggled in my life with boundaries. So, I'm the pot calling the kettle black in this regard. However, I have been able to set a few key boundaries in the last month, and they're holding.

Like when I tell my kids "I'm willing to listen to your concerns when you calm down and talk in the same voice that I am talking to you". Then walk away.

[25yearsmlc]

Kyrie,

Please take in the advice being given here, b/c I sense a lot of resistance.

I know you think your situation is uniquely difficult & overwhelming. The good news is that's it's not.

The only SEMI unique factor is that your h is a pastor. (There have been others. And many many WAS's use their religion to justify leaving, and many LBSers use religion to justify judging their spouses.)

Anyway, if you are the sole provider then you know leaving him takes out a lot of the financial fears many women have. That is also good news. I strongly recommend seeing a Lawyer just for information. You need "do" nothing but gain information.

But knowledge is power. It made me realize I was choosing to work on my m, not trapped in it.

When you realize how much choice you really do have, it's empowering.

I believe that if you process the information being given, and stop defending or explaining yourself -
[/i]
you truly can change your perspective on this.

PORN -

Vanilla's opinion and Zues's differ greatly on the matter porn. (So does mine). I think that is helpful for you to know.

I would also point out the huge spectrum of what "porn" is, b/c there's quite a variety.

I'm not pushing my opinion of porn onto you.

But here are a few realizations that have worked for me, though porn was not a significant issue in my m.

1) Re porn, SOME COUPLES get a lot out of it & they enjoy it, when it's done together. Or at least the wives don't seem to mind it. One woman said "I don't care where he gets his appetite, as long as he comes home for 'dinner'."

There is no hiding or deceit involved. If you think about it, that factor is pretty applicable to most of our married life & behaviors, really i.e., if your spouse would be hurt by the behavior, avoid it.

Doesn't sound like "watching together" is an option for you. Or is it?

AND we don't know what type of porn this is.

There's "Soft porn" that has actual dialogue in it, which suggests mutual consent, (and of course, perfectly "performed" sex).

I think it's one thing to know your h saw a photo or film clip of someone that turned him on, and led him back to bed with you,

AND quite another thing for him to misuse porn, by either:

a) watching porn that involves overt pain to, or lack of consent from the woman. That's just plain scary to most of us.
OR

b) the spouse uses porn to keep his urges to himself and denies his wife sexual intimacy b/c he took care of his own needs, and didn't feel "obligated" to meet hers.

That^^ second behavior is why porn is so attractive to adolescent males who have no girlfriend or "outlet" for their hormonal urges.

Sooooo, does his porn use require a divorce?

(Is there ANY flaw in a spouse that 'REQUIRES" a divorce? Most would say physical abuse requires leaving the home or kicking the abuser out. I think we'd probably all agree there. )

But most marital issues are not quite so clean cut and clear.

I don't know many women who would leave their h's solely b/c he watched porn; but if he denied his wife intimacy because of it, then many would leave.

For you, however, there's a lot more to this situation than porn. Correct?

Can you outline briefly, what the "bad" behaviors are and how important they are to you?

My DB coach told me once that if h engages in "an undesirable behavior and which he KNOWS I don't want him to engage in, I have to choose between

leaving him b/c it's that important to me, OR STFU.

Because staying married and continuing to criticize the "bad behavior" helps no one. it's like saying "stay married AND stay miserable".


There is another choice...

2) You stay and become happy, by GAL and Detaching from your h's behavior, and enjoying the parts of the marriage you can enjoy. That might be just the parenting for now, or it may lead you to leave the m....in TIME. OR he may see your inner peace and decide he wants to be part of that...and so, he changes...

But you will be better off, regardless.

My question for you is this:

IF nothing in your h's behavior improves, do you want to stay married to him? Think about this deeply. There is little to no reason to believe he will change while married to you. You cannot change him. Period.

(And You can't get your "allies" or his superiors to change him either. Believe me, I had h's bff's calling, and his brother, and it never helped me. In fact, it bugged h a lot. Plus, the more his choices were challenged, the more he defended the choices and or attacked me...

Is the real reason you are staying in the marriage, b/c deep down you think you might have flaws that are causing a lot of this ---or that you are not truly worthy of being loved deeply--

OR b/c your pride doesn't want you to admit you've chosen poorly, again?

There are couples who divorce and remarry, and the 2nd time is better. I've got 2 family members who did just that. They were apart for a few years and each person worked on themselves. Sometimes it takes being left, in order to really get your act together.

I'm not suggesting this as a tactic, merely making an observation.

And FWIW My h and I do NOT agree on our marital past. That bothered me a great deal, for a long time.

Now, I choose to believe that what matters most is agreeing on our future.

[25yearsmlc]

Hey Moderators, what happened to being able to EDIT our posts??

Dang...I really like the edit function.

[Vanilla]

Kyrie, no, you don't say you are dropping the rope. You just drop it. Its not like you are leaving him, you are still his w, but you are managing your own emotions. Don't get into it with him, just do it. Especially with your H, he will want to argue with you about it. Just do it.

If only it were that simple. Again, he *wants* to hash all this out. There's no way to avoid it.

You refuse STFU and walk away. By reacting in any way you feed his rage.

If you want to read my threads, my WH was a rage aholic. I eventually got it to stop by not reacting at all.

Only engage when he is reasonable.

These are his demons not yours. Do not engage with a rageaholic especially if they are drinking and in addict mode. You are not dealing with the person, you are dealing with the addiction.

I think Al anon is one of your solutions.

Several posters here are advising you very strongly what to do, including a vet 25. Your response is full of excuses, your children are hearing this, it needs to stop, it is exceedingly difficult for children to see their mother treated this way and not standing for herself and her children. It's time to call a stop to it for your own sake. I am concerned for your safety if your WH is this out of control of his addictionS.

You are enabling WH to use his resources to fund his addictions, have your own account, pay your bills request a contribution from WH.

This is full on addiction and it is severe, I very strongly recommend you attend Al anon tonight, not tomorrow but immediately.

V

[kyrie]

(still reading through everything) but realized something: 2 priciples are opposing each other and they both keep me feeling like I'm going against my own principles.
1. As many, esp. Zues has said, marraige is more important than the specific sins (each of ours)
but
2. An affair, including affair of the eyes (biblically speaking - and he has the same belief here) is unacceptable. Unrepentance is unacceptable. An affair can be forgiven. Unrepentance cannot.
So that's what it comes down to.
I've long felt like just being straight and asking: are you repentant? Because in the end, biblically, that's what makes the difference.
I don't want to live a double life. A fake life. It's killing me.
SO much to process.

[cat04]

^^^

Then there is your answer.

You dont even need to ask your H if he is repentive or not because his actions show you what the answer is.

Just as your actions show whether you are ot not.

Good luck Kyrie.