Here I am still

[Vanilla]

There is much sense in 25 posts, surrender to the higher power and work on you. You have no control over WH and whilst he is using porn he is wayward treat him as such. Hold Sandi 37 close to your hearts.

Porn is a behavioural addiction, it can never be cured only managed. The addict has to want to manage their addiction. It is in the same class as gambling and anorexia.

Addicts don't quit their addiction whilst they are active they use every resource they have to keep their action going. It does not mean they don't love or feel, it just means the behaviour means more than anything else. Your WH is a overt addict, he is not as yet gone covert. This says to me he believes he has it under control somewhat. When he realises he doesn't he will go underground with it. He may also do that if he is threatened in some way, that very fact makes the addict feel entitled to their addiction.

The shame kicks in and the depression when it dawns it's out of control, and it eventually will. Even so addicts continue with their addiction.

Being an addict is a lonely place to be. Being a covert addict is isolating. Many of these addicts get really depressed. In the defiant stage, they have not accepted they are addicts.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU.

Nothing at all. It's his circus his monkeys.

You can't love an addict from their addiction
You can't talk an addict out of it
You can't criticise an addict to wake up
You can't take away their computer, lock them in a room forever
If they want the behaviour they will go get it

The addict is addicted because they are. They stick with their addiction because they are addicted. Do that which you need to do for you, do not enable, do not lie or cover up for him. Do not fund the addiction in any way with any resource. Get IC for you.

If you can join a 12 step group for friends and family of addicts. On line if needs be and chat to someone knowledgeable about behavioural addictions such as this. WH is ill, you have nothing to be ashamed of. Once you drop your shame then things get much easier for you, realise there are many out there who are in your position. My WH is a compulsive gambler, compulsive to his core, out of control with his demons which he calls issues. Sounds nicer doesn't it? But he has not accepted he has them, his decision. Nothing I can do. That's multiple addictions by the way, cross addicted. Addicts have a life full of their addictions.

This is a hard journey for the loved ones of an addict, leave the addict to his addiction, don't interfere, you can't anyway. Make it clear you need him to be a functioning addict. Then drop it, completely.

Otherwise his addiction is in control of your behaviour and feelings.

There is nothing you can do whilst you concentrate on his addiction. Concentrating on his addiction makes both of you addicted to his behaviour in different ways.

25 advice is as always rock solid. The only one you can influence is you. Create a loving influence for you. HaV your boundaries and hold them. Make it clear you will not enable his addiction by your behaviour.

When the time comes and your WH reaches shame and depression, then he hits rock bottom and surrenders to the higher power. Until that moment, live each day for you and your children.

His influence on your D is obvious, she is patterning the behaviour, although not with the porn addiction. You are going to have to be the stronger parent. WH will deny etc to stay with his behavioural drug of choice. You are the best chance your children have of great parenting.

Focus on you and your children. There is little you can do for WH other than stand.

Just my 2c

V

[Vanilla]

Small correction, not all porn users are addicted to it.

Just as not all who gambler are compulsive gamblers.


V

[cat04]

Kyrie,

I spent yesterday rereading all of your threads. I know I "disappeared". So did you. Sometimes we just need a break from this place. Especially those of us further down the road.

I am going to be honest and you may wish I didn't return.

I see that not much has changed in any way what so ever since you began posting.

Your H is still doing his thing, whatever that may be.

You...are still doing yours...in the same way you were doing it 6 months ago.

What I see is that you are still looking for the "correct" thing to say or do to make this all be different.

There is no magic pill, as I hope you are beginning to figure out.

So you want to know what to do...

Everyone posting to you is telling you the same thing, some almost pleading with you because they feel your pain and know what worked for them. They are telling you to focus on yourself. Make changes within yourself. Work on KYRIE.

REGARDLESS of how your H reacts.

Here is a secret that I didn't see mentioned anywhere.

If you try to make changes, try to validate, try 180's, etc...

UNLESS those changes etc are GENUINE, CONSISTENT, and become A PART OF THE NEW YOU...

Your H will see them as a trick or manipulation. (Which is how he is going to see them initially anyway and try to test you to see if he can bring out the "old Kyrie".

They also won't last because they are NOT a part of who you want to become.

So then they truely are fake. Just like he is accusing you of.

Changes HAVE to be for you. In order for them to stick.

Additionally, you keep talking about confession and repenting and you say you have done that regarding your mistakes. You say that like that is all you have to do and all is better.

What I feel you are missing is that when we repent of things, behaviors, etc...we can't keep repeating those behaviors or we haven't truly repented. WE MUST MAKE CHANGES. All we have done is said the words we think we are supposed to say. And I see that in your behavior.

(BTW, you don't have to confess everything to your H. Confess it to GOD.)

Additionally, I see you still score keeping your H. Yes he is making choices you don't like right now. Things that in your opinion are sins. Grevious errors.

It isn't up to you to judge him. It isn't up to any other human being to judge him. That is something between him and his God.

The only thing you can do is decide if you can accept someone in your life who is acting so contrary to the type of person you want in your life or not.

And then you act based on what you are willing to accept or not.

I will keep checking in on you although I believe you are getting good solid advice, as you have all along.

Focus on YOU. Make changes for YOU. Work on your boundaries. Stop snooping (yes I recognize that you still have much intel that your H did not provide you.) Stop being judgemental. Stop waiting for your H to change in order for you to make changes. Stop worrying about what he thinks of you.

Become someone that YOU like. Someone that YOU are happy with.
Someone that YOU want to spend time with.

Your H will either see it over time and decide to join you, or he will continue down his path, whatever that may be for him.

You can do this if you make the choice.

PS...reread DB again. You still don't have a great grasp of the concepts, so you are confused as to how this can help YOU.

[kyrie]

So much to reply to today. Vanilla - he's completely covert. He does not know that I know he uses every single day, nor does he know that I am aware of his visits to the nudie bars. That part, I think, is new. He has *always* struggled with depression and control issues. He has always believed he has himself under perfect control and everyone else is the losers and savages. His words. He has always been this way, to some degree. I dunno if he can hit rock bottom without me leaving/divorcing.

You say do not fund, but I'm the sole provider (pretty much) for the family. Just thinking about it, I'm an addict's dream: sole provider, submissive/obedient wife, already once divorced, with 2 children and who hates divorce. I already do everything in the household (cleaning/bills).
How do you maintain a household (without divorce) in this sitch??
I guess he's functioning (he also is an alcoholic) - but he rages at me and wants to control every last thing. There is no "dropping it" - he wants to talk endlessly about how terrible I am.
Some of the things you all say to do, I think I understand. Do you state clearly "I'm dropping the rope" or anything like that?

[kyrie]

Hi Fo - still trying to catch up.
If I were to avoid him he uses that as more spew fodder: that I'm controlling the conversation, that I don't want to deal with things, that I'm in la-la land and won't cooperate, etc.
I do see what you mean about not latching on to good or bad or what might 'fix' things - I have been too apt to latch on to that. It's hard because I'm suffocating. I'll take anything at this point and that's pathetic.
He sees all this. He interprets validation as patronization and smells it a mile away.
Again, if I suggest separation or that he get his own place while I deal with myself then that automatically means I'm controlling things. Which is not a 180. He can work that anytime he wants, KWIM?

Kyrie, yes I do know what you mean which is why you need to take the space that YOU need to live your life in peace. You validate, he spews. You ask for space, he spews. Whatever you do, he is going to spew. So do what is best for you. I believe that would be getting away from the spew. How is it helping him or you to stand there and listen to the spew? Is being his punching bag diffusing the situation? Is it building his character or helping him heal? No. The spew is not good for you, it is wearing you out. Trust me on this, at a certain point you are going to crash if you continue to live with this level of high-intensity stress. You keep saying "I can't do X or Y because he will spew." You still think you are causing the spew. This is something he is going through, something about him, not you. He is spewing at you because it is easier for him to blame you than to look inwards at himself. You can not do that for him. By engaging him in this cycle you are enabling him to continue to do it. Take away his punching bag. Remove yourself physically from the spew. Of course he will spew about that too, but if you are not there to hear it, then he will be forced to deal with his emotions some other way. And in the meantime, you are still a loving person, still loving him in the ways that are authentic and non-degrading to you, like I said fixing him dinner, taking care of the family, greeting him nicely, offering words of comfort or appreciation as necessary. I am not saying go no-contact, just no spew. [/quote]
The spew will happen even if I do all those things. He'll wake me up at night to spew. When I have tried to avoid it in the past he accuses me of controlling things and will pester me. He has had ample opportunity to only look at himself. He's even wailed about "I'm so sick of this", etc, etc. Almost seems like he's nearly there, but it just never really happens.

[ARose]

Kyrie, no, you don't say you are dropping the rope. You just drop it. Its not like you are leaving him, you are still his w, but you are managing your own emotions. Don't get into it with him, just do it. Especially with your H, he will want to argue with you about it. Just do it.

[kyrie]

Kyrie,

The head of the house is supposed to love his wife like Christ loves the church.
Did Christ spew venom on people (well, besides the pharasees?)
No.

I'm coming from a Biblical perspective. Others on this board will come from other perspectives.

Yes, if he is head of household, he can make choices. However, is he taking your opinion into the equation?

A good question to ask, and has been asked at work:

Are you a leader or a boss?

Are you pushing the people you're responsible for, or pulling them to be better?

Boss's push. Leaders pull.

It certainly sounds like your husband is a boss. He could well learn some lessons in leadership.

How to accomplish that is a big question.

I am dealing with a WW, and I want to tell her she's wrong all the time. I have a pride issue, and the only way I can solve it is to realize I'm broken, and I have lots of things to fix, so that we can build a better marriage. Cleaning up my side of the street. My wife will respect me if I don't disrespect her, and she will respect the counselors who tell her what she could work on. I could say the exact same words as our pastor or counselor, but without respect, my words will fall on deaf ears.

Thus, why I said find someone to talk to. Get to the heart of your husband through someone else's head.

Trumpet, all those things are true, but I cannot be the one to say them. He trusts & respects no one. And yes, pride is the core of all our sins. Zues has helped with some aspects of what's in his head, as you say.

[trumpet]

Kyrie,

What did your DB coach say? What was your plan of action?

[kyrie]

Hey Trumpet - haven't spoken with one yet. Timing is SO difficult. Trying - hoping later this week. Still slogging through all the posts...

[kyrie]

Kyrie, Fo has it right on.

You don't ignore or dismiss H's complaints.
You also don't accept everything he says as gospel.

You find a place of peace where you can hear it objectively. You listen to it. You validate it. You pray on it. Where there is legitimate need for growth, you open your heart up to change.

One tip on how to hear things objectively and avoid reacting to spew is in this link. It's a method I found to avoid being defensive or argumentative when facing unbelievably inappropriate statements:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...rue#Post2558497

Of course, you are human, you can't change who you are, and even the stuff you can start working on you can't change overnight. So take it slow. This is a lifelong journey, not an overhaul. And of course don't do it with the expectation he'll notice or react differently. One good way to tell if you have expectations is by asking "if we weren't together would I still make these changes for me?" If the answer is 'no' then it's probably part of a controlled/controlling cycle rather than genuine desire for growth.

This is the card game I put together for my old buddy Pyrite:

I read your post this morning but had to work all day and then had kid time tonight, this was my first chance to get back to you. I really want to share a model that I think will help you out.

There were two people, you and your W. Let's pretend there's a game being played. You have 10 cards you can choose from, A low, 10 high. Each time either of you interact with each other you have to decide to play a card symbolizing how you treat each other. A 10 means you choose to be extremely loving, selfless, generous, noble, and operate from your highest spiritual self. A 5 means you're having an average day, you're on auto pilot, you may do some things for your mate but aren't really engaged. A 3 is negative, critical, impatient. Below that is the red zone where it becomes destructive, controlling, and potentially abusive.

In the beginning each of you plays a 10 card. You both feel good about the love you're feeling, and feel good about the love you're getting. Somehow that's hard to maintain with life getting in the way. Eventually you notice the cards she's playing are 5s and 6s. This is frustrating. You came to really like 10s. In fact, when she was playing 10 cards you felt really good. When she plays 5s and 6s you feel dissatisfied. You get frustrated that she won't play the 10s like she used to.

Disappointment leads to frustration. Frustration leads to hurt. Hurt leads to anger. Anger that isn't addressed builds into resentment. Next thing you know, you don't feel loving. You don't feel like playing 10s much either. In fact, you start to resent even having to play 5s and 6s yourself. It's not fair! Why should she get everything she wants and needs and for her to neglect you with a series of 5s? You can't be happy with 5s, and you would be with 10s, so really it's her failure to do her job that is the cause for your unhappiness. You start to play lower and lower cards. Partly because you are so resentful you can't stand the thought of giving her what she wants while you're not getting what you want. Partly to try to "get her attention", or show her that something is wrong. And partly because you just don't have the loving feelings that generate bigger loving numbers.

You NEED big numbers to be happy. She's failing. You must force her to play bigger numbers. There's only one strategy left. Time to play some 2s and A's. Put the hammer down. Make it clear this is unacceptable. Either you give me what I want and deserve or I will make things absolutely unbearable. Verbal abuse. Withholding affection. Critical comments. Bullying. Whatever.

***OK, STOP THE GAME A MINUTE***

I described how it felt to play this game. If someone asked "what type of guy are you, are you the kind of guy that plays A's or 10's or what?", you'd respond "I'm a GREAT guy, I'll play 10s or at least pretty big cards most of the time". If someone asked "why did you play so many A's and 2's the last couple of years? That looked borderline abusive", you'd reply "WHOA! That's NOT ME. That's not who I am! I only played those cards because SHE left me no choice! She was playing 3's and 4's and not loving me the way I need to be loved! If she had done HER JOB right I would've been HAPPY to respond with 7s, 9s, and a 10 now and then!"

So the whole issue in your mind was the way she treated you, and how it caused you to respond. You don't identify with you behavior because you see it as a reflection of her failure.

BUT THERE ARE SOME TRUTHS
-YOU ARE THE CARDS YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY. If you play A's and 2's, you are abusive. Doesn't matter why. If you kill someone you're a murderer. If you rob a bank you're a bank robber. And when you choose to treat someone poorly, then you are a BAD H. PERIOD.

-IT'S NOT HER JOB TO PLAY 10S AND MAKE YOU HAPPY. Yes, 10s feel great. It's a nice treat in life to experience. But that's not life. Life isn't a series of sexual adventures, passionate date nights, back rubs, and sharing poetry. Why? I don't know. We build a tolerance to things and quickly expect them and take them for granted. Heck, even if she kept playing 10s they would start to feel like 7s to you quickly as you got used to it. Eventually people get to a level they can maintain (such as 5s through 8s with an occasional 10) and it starts to feel like a disappointment. AND IF YOU USED THE 10S TO MAKE YOURSELF FEEL GOOD ABOUT YOUR LIFE YOU WILL SUDDENLY FEEL DISCONTENT AND FEEL YOUR PARTNER IS TO BLAME. SHE'S NOT. You have to be happy on your own, and take what you get as a bonus.

-ONLY YOU GET TO DECIDE WHAT CARDS YOU PLAY. It doesn't matter if she plays 10s or 1s. *YOU* decide each day what type of person you are, how you want to respond. It's YOUR choice, not hers. She can play a 3 and you can STILL CHOOSE to respond with a 10.

CONCLUSION-

So, the funny part about all of this is that SHE FEELS THE SAME WAY. She thinks you didn't play the cards she needed to feel happy. She excuses all of her poor behavior as the "natural" reaction to being treated so poorly from you. She thinks what you did is far worse. This extends all the way to the "cheating". In her mind she would've never cheated had you not emotionally abused her for years, and it was only because of your actions that she was forced to take refuge in someone else to preserve herself. Then she remembered what a 10 felt like and decided that you were just an Ahole that played 1s-3s, and she can't have that in her life, and she found someone that plays 10s, so see ya later.

Now you're not playing the game anymore. There's no more interaction. SO YOU'RE NOT DEALING WITH THE DIFFICULTY OF BEING DISAPPOINTED OR RESENTFUL. You start to find it easier to act like a fine and upstanding citizen. This further proves to you that it must've been her driving you crazy. WRONG. It's easier to conduct yourself well on your own. You're not better! If you were in a relationship again tomorrow you'd be back on the downward spiral again, and you'd be dropping 2's and A's on people in a controlling way until they left you as well. Why? Because you haven't learned another way yet!

For you to judge her on the cards she was playing and excuse your cards because they were the only possible reaction is not going to get you anywhere.

Step one is acknowledging the truths above, taking ownership for your behavior REGARDLESS of the context, and deciding what type of man you want to be. Step two is forgiving her for the cards she's played because now you see how she's done nothing you haven't also done. Step three is learning how to take responsibility for your own happiness so you don't resent your future partner for not being able to chemically maintain euphoria in your life. And step four is learning coping mechanisms so that you are able to maintain responses between 5-10 even when you feel hurt, threatened, or rejected.

When you reach that point where you can be truly ok without a woman's love to make you feel ok, then you can be free to choose to respond lovingly much more often. Oh, and that cheater that just dumped you? Maybe if you had the strength before to treat her differently she would've responded differently. That's the whole DB/DR idea- control your half of the dance and you'd be surprised at what you see in exchange. Of course, it will never be all 10s, that's why you have to grow a bit first. And if you do, people will take notice and you'll be ready for a truly successful M. Who knows...maybe she'll even notice...maybe she'll learn these things on her own after her fling dies down...you can't control that, but if YOU can't learn it how can you expect her to? I say lead by example and act with the character you wish she was utilizing. Maybe if you become the spiritual leader and walk this path she'll notice, and maybe follow suit. If not, you'll know you did your best to save the M, and more importantly you'll need an M to make you happy LESS, and be prepared to have a happy M MORE.

Zues, what you shared, esp. the 10s thing makes sense. However, it is still in opposition to the "drop the rope" advise given throughout. I just can't wrap my head around both at the same time.
Frankly I'm so tempted to share this with him but I know that's verboten in DB.