Here again after 9 years and struggling 2

[Ancaire]

IP - How far in advance does H get a schedule of his shifts? You have a right to ask for that schedule. You can and should put an end to his showing up whenever he likes, but still allow him and the children plenty of time with one another.

I'd definitely let him know you're working on a schedule that brings some routine back into the children's lives, but allows you both to have more equal "free time" with them. You also need to insist he take them on weekends he's available. How else can you start GAL?

Try and flip the way you're looking at the situation. Make him babysit his own kids. If he's out having a life, why can't you have an opportunity to do the same? Put the man to work!

[ciluzen]

So, I'm going to try to answer some of your comments on what I said earlier. Purple writing is the new stuff. Again, sorry for the harsh tone...I'm tired and crabby, but I care about you doggone it!
Despite what I put in my previous post I am being cheerful and upbeat when he comes round. I am making sure I look my best and I make jokes and am happy and playful with the children. I have made him laugh most visits. What I have learned about why he left...he doesn't love me anymore because, in his words, I have 'beaten' it out of him. Not literally, I have never touched him or beaten him. He means with words. I struggled for a long time to be receptive to him and not be angry with him after the discovery of him contacting OW again for several years behind my back. In his own way he tried to make it right but it wasn't the way I needed and by his own admission he gave up. We have also argued a lot about S11. H is very strict and we have disagreed about this a lot. He has also said I don't show an interest in what he has to say about his job. Since he has left, when he comes round I have done the following 180s: showed keen interest in everything he talks to me about and asked questions about his job, wished him a good shift whenever he leaves if he is going to work that day; stayed out of any times he's disciplined S11; shown love in the only way I can when he's sacked me as his wife, by making him feel welcome and attending to needs such as drinks/snacks.

I still remember my H telling me, "stop beating me up" in reference to me chewing on him for the millionth time about how he made me feel. As said before, our spouses are similar. Or maybe our bad habits.
They don't want to hear about how we feel. Now is not the time to "communicate" our needs. As much as we feel the need to tell them, it will drive them away. They are in too much pain to absorb ours, too.
Your 180's sound good. Especially listening. I wouldn't ask questions about his work as much as mirroring what he is telling you and asking a question just to clarify what was said. Otherwise, too many questions = pressure and pursuit.
Same with making him feel welcome. Do it with a smile, but let him attend to his own needs. Right now he is neither loving spouse nor guest.
Don't push interaction if he doesn't seem interested on your first try. Stay upbeat, but just become very busy doing something else.


He has left YOU. Not THEM. He is showing you this every time he visits. It hurts. Use it. SHOW him you UNDERSTAND that he needs his space ...and his children.

Use those things that are most painful to you, the things that you want to fight against the hardest, as if they are little truth bullets. It hurts when you see him being nice to the kids because you want that unconditional love that he gives to them, but you know his love for you has conditions that HE FEELS were not met. Use this pain to back away from him, stop pursuing his love. And to DB.


About not letting him in if he breaches your boundaries:
I am afraid to do this in case it angers him and hampers my DBing efforts.

Has he ever been violent with you? Is that what you mean by afraid? If not, then yes he may get angry but he would be breaking your very reasonable rules. If you have stated your boundaries calmly ahead of time (before his late visit), and remain calm while enforcing them, then you are simply being...a MOTHER. This is part of DBing. Setting boundaries. If you have never done this, it is a 180. He may even respect you for it.

[/quote]I don't see how they can be right to leave rather than working on the M. I understand what you mean about what if that was the only reason they came back. I can see that. I do not intend to not change if he comes back though. I want him to come back so that I can show him I am changing/have changed/ will continue to be different and attentive.

Let's face it. His trust in you not beating him up right now is gone. His trust in you changing what isn't working in your R is also gone. The changes are going to have to happen now while he is gone, and they have to be real; as in, for YOU regardless of the outcome of your R. Otherwise, he will feel manipulated. No excuses. Ask him to watch the kids and go DO something. Organize a book club, an exercise group, a walking group if you can't find one. Be happy and fun and interesting; not just a mom and wife. Change and be happy despite him. He will notice even if he's not living there.

I want to build a happy M with him,
Then build a happy YOU. Happy people don't beat up their husbands (I'm being harsh because I did it, too)
not have him stay for the kids. However, the children are being hurt A LOT by this. My D7 is complaining of tummy aches all the time and saying she doesn't want to go to school (she loved school prior to H leaving) and she cannot get to sleep because she misses Daddy tucking her in. S11 is in tears every day and asks constantly why Daddy isn't coming home and is always asking H why. I know it is excruciating to watch your kids hurt through this, but (I can't make this sound nice) give them a little credit. Tell them what is happening in such a way that it doesn't demean their father and so that they don't have to ask why. Let them know it has nothing to do with them...that they have done nothing wrong. Then get tough. Set boundaries with your children. NONE of you are victims. Your happiness and their happiness is not contingent on his actions. If that is what they are led to believe, then you and they are going to have a hard time whenever faced with a painfully difficult situation. And there are others than separation and D out there.
I understand how hard this is. I made the mistake of involving my grown daughters early on by crying to them about my pain. I never said anything bad about my H, but leaned on them because they were my closest "friends" other than H. It doesn't matter how old they are, or how nice you are. Its not right. This separation causes pain in our kids no matter what age. But its better to explain what's happening and then tell them it has nothing to do with them. And show them nothing but strength and happiness in you, because you are the model for how to deal with life's curve balls.

[inpain]

Hi Ciluzen

Thank you for posting again so quickly. I haven't been able to stop thinking about what you put and the reality of what I'm doing so it's good to hear more from you.

They don't want to hear about how we feel. Now is not the time to "communicate" our needs. As much as we feel the need to tell them, it will drive them away. They are in too much pain to absorb ours, too. Your 180's sound good. Especially listening. I wouldn't ask questions about his work as much as mirroring what he is telling you and asking a question just to clarify what was said. Otherwise, too many questions = pressure and pursuit.

I only ask questions when he has initiated talking to me about work, I don't initiate any of it.

Same with making him feel welcome. Do it with a smile, but let him attend to his own needs. Right now he is neither loving spouse nor guest.
Don't push interaction if he doesn't seem interested on your first try. Stay upbeat, but just become very busy doing something else.


So I should stop making drinks, offering food etc? Just let him in and go about my business away from them all, in another part of the house? I've been staying in the room so that he can see how happy and upbeat I am.

[quote=Ciluzen]
Use those things that are most painful to you, the things that you want to fight against the hardest, as if they are little truth bullets. It hurts when you see him being nice to the kids because you want that unconditional love that he gives to them, but you know his love for you has conditions that HE FEELS were not met. Use this pain to back away from him, stop pursuing his love. And to DB.

So as I said above then, I should just warmly welcome him in and then go out or go to another part of the house away from him?

Has he ever been violent with you? Is that what you mean by afraid? If not, then yes he may get angry but he would be breaking your very reasonable rules. If you have stated your boundaries calmly ahead of time (before his late visit), and remain calm while enforcing them, then you are simply being...a MOTHER. This is part of DBing. Setting boundaries. If you have never done this, it is a 180. He may even respect you for it.

No, I didn't mean afraid of him being violent, I just meant afraid that he would get angry and that would ruin my chances of busting this divorce.

Let's face it. His trust in you not beating him up right now is gone. His trust in you changing what isn't working in your R is also gone. The changes are going to have to happen now while he is gone, and they have to be real; as in, for YOU regardless of the outcome of your R. Otherwise, he will feel manipulated. No excuses. Ask him to watch the kids and go DO something. Organize a book club, an exercise group, a walking group if you can't find one. Be happy and fun and interesting; not just a mom and wife. Change and be happy despite him. He will notice even if he's not living there.

I do get this, but the changes I need to make are to not verbally 'beat him up' and to be interested in what he tells me. How can these be changes that are made for ME regardless of whether or not he comes home? The other bit about being happy regardless, again, how is he going to know this and see this if I vacate the room as soon as I've let him in the door? I understand what to do, just not how it is supposed to help.

I know it is excruciating to watch your kids hurt through this, but (I can't make this sound nice) give them a little credit. Tell them what is happening in such a way that it doesn't demean their father and so that they don't have to ask why. Let them know it has nothing to do with them...that they have done nothing wrong. Then get tough. Set boundaries with your children. NONE of you are victims. Your happiness and their happiness is not contingent on his actions. If that is what they are led to believe, then you and they are going to have a hard time whenever faced with a painfully difficult situation. And there are others than separation and D out there.
I understand how hard this is. I made the mistake of involving my grown daughters early on by crying to them about my pain. I never said anything bad about my H, but leaned on them because they were my closest "friends" other than H. It doesn't matter how old they are, or how nice you are. Its not right. This separation causes pain in our kids no matter what age. But its better to explain what's happening and then tell them it has nothing to do with them. And show them nothing but strength and happiness in you, because you are the model for how to deal with life's curve balls.[/color]

I have done this from the outset. They do know that it is just me that H doesn't love anymore and that he still loves them. They know none of it is their fault. They still want him to come back though (obviously) and it hasn't stopped S11 asking why he won't just come home. He doesn't see how Daddy can not love me as, and I quote, "You're beautiful and lovely and kind Mummy."

[Irish M]

Inpain
Oh and I understand your choice in your name... It is very painful. It's harder seeing our children hurt in such a way and we are helpless to get them what they want and fix this.

Your H did this already on a smaller version years ago. This is part 2 because he did not figure himself out the first time around. I know you want to just hold him and talk some sense into him. Sadly you can't. Your kids crying is also ineffective on him.

I don't think you are using your children to get your H back. You just want them to be happy and have their daddy back full time. Nothing wrong in wanting your family back together. Just remind yourself that your R you had with him is over. If he decides to come back it's a brand new R. Are you going to be the same person? The answer is no. In my case i've changed so much. I like the new me better.

You also have to ask yourself. Your H right now... Would you date him as he is today. I know I wouldn't date my W. She is not the person I loved for years. She's narcissist and zero values. she has a long way to go. They have to change too and the only way they can do that is working on themselves.

On days your kids don't see and it's not planned that they see their dad. Try keeping them busy. Get them so tired with fun that they fall asleep at the end of the day with happy faces. so important to GAL. You need to do this for you aswell. Your kids are watching.

It's a great thing their dad wants to be a part of their lives. It has to be your rules.
Don't worry about upsetting him. He left. You are the parent here. He needs to step up and help you raise those kids. Him watching them is a great idea and you go out to GAL. But in my case when W was in and out of my house and was alone with the kids... She never fed them or talked to them. She was on her phone or in another room.

In the end I stopped leaving them alone with her.

How are you financially? Is he paying any support to you and the kids.
Protect your assets. Monitor the bank accounts and seperate them. Stop any joint accounts and credit cards. Protect yourself and your kids.

Really wish you strength . You are not alone and I see you are getting a lot of advise.

Irish xx

[ciluzen]

What IrishM said^^^^.

Sorry, Inpain. I feel that I am coming across to you as attacking you. I'm not. I just feel every ounce of the pain you are going through every time you write, and being the mom I am, I want it to go away...NOW. I know you do, too.

It is horrible to watch your kids go through this pain. I know that you are angry with H because he has left you and hurt the children in the process. You want to fix their hearts and make their pain go away. What mom wouldn't? But it is not something you can control. You can't fix it or make it go away. All you can do is hug them, love them and trust that they will get through it. YOU will get through it. And YOU will show them how.

I know you worry that if you aren't there interacting with him that he won't see your changes. But by not being there and interacting, by saying "have fun! I'm off for a walk with my friends!", aren't you already showing him change?

Specific changes, like verbally not beating him up, will have to wait for an opportunity. With space given, his memory of you doing that might fade and lose its power. With space you can learn and then remember to hold your tongue when the opportunity arises.

Giving space doesn't have to mean you don't see each other. You will still greet him when he sees the kids. But you will limit your interactions. And if those limited interactions are pleasant, more and more he will remember only good things about you. Give this time. Give him space.

There is a post somewhere on these boards about smothering. I had to read and re-read it til it sunk in. I will try to look for it. It applies not only to our H, but also to children. Strange, I know. I have had to use DB methods with one of my daughters. And it worked in a very short time. Anyway, try to find it.

Again, I care about you. You are my strength buddy. We both need to remind ourselves, this takes time and understanding. Its a learning process. But we have to walk through the pain, there is no way around it. And we have to drag our children with us through it because we are mothers, but because we are mothers we will show them only our strength in facing it. GAL and detach. Teach them those things, too.

[ciluzen]

Ok. Couldn't find it on these boards. But if you google "definition of smothering" it pops up an article on eharmony. It is very good...it is what I have been reading.

[isittoolate]

Ciluzen is this it?

Smothering vs. Love

There’s no such thing as loving someone too much. There is such a thing, though, as too much smothering. And smothering can definitely scare someone away.

So what does it mean to really love someone, and when does love turn into smothering?

Smothering, ultimately, isn’t about love, but about selfishness. When you love someone, you want what’s best for the person, even if that means the relationship looks different from what you had in mind. In contrast, when you smother, you prioritize your own needs for closeness or connection, as opposed to what the other person wants or needs. This is one reason people can get scared away and run from a relationship.

So let’s look at some differences between smothering and love.

Smothering takes. It’s selfish. When you smother, you’re really not considering the other person’s feelings and desires. You may feel like you’re showing love, but if you’re being motivated by your own insecurity about the relationship or your own fears about losing this person, then you’re probably more in the smothering camp.

Love gives. It’s generous. It prioritizes the other person’s freedom and autonomy. When you love, you’re willing to do whatever is best for the person you care for, even if that means you don’t get exactly what you want, exactly when you want it.

Smothering demands. When you smother, you constantly ask about the future, insisting on specific answers and results. You also demand attention or reassurance from the other person, requiring repeated statements of proof of their commitment level or feelings for you.

Love patiently waits. When you love, you enjoy the present, allowing the other person and the relationship to progress at a comfortable pace. You wait for both of you to become ready for a certain level of intimacy, instead of asking for premature answers or commitments that can put pressure on the other person and scare him or her away.

Smothering disregards what another wants. When you offer continual statements of how much you care about the other person, you may feel as if you’re actually offering love and simply trying to demonstrate how strong your feelings are. But when the other person doesn’t want to hear repeated avowals of your love, you can end up coming across as needy and desperate, merely because you’re disregarding how your partner feels and what he or she wants.

Love considers and respects the other’s desires. True feelings of love don’t force themselves on another person in ways or at times that the person isn’t ready to receive them. Again, sometimes the best way to show your love is to respect the other’s wishes and allow the relationship to grow and develop more gradually. It may seem strange, but there really are times when it’s not the best idea to say “I love you” over and over again.

Smothering oppresses. It pesters and desperately grasps. It calls too often or sends too many text messages. It results from fear and can end up making the relationship feel like a prison to the other person. It’s like building a border of rocks around a campfire to contain it and to keep it from going where it would naturally go.

Love offers space, respect, and trust. Love invites the other’s truest self. It frees the other to be and act and love how the person chooses. Whereas smothering encircles and contains the fire with rocks, love kicks the rocks away, allowing the fire to burn strong and free.

Smothering tells another what to think or do. When you smother another person, you tell them who they should and shouldn’t spend time with. You check up on where they’re going. You expect them to behave in ways you want them to behave, sometimes even through manipulation.

Love respects and encourages autonomy. Loving someone means allowing others to be fully themselves. Of course it’s true that in a relationship, two people rub off on each other and help each other grow and evolve, but this process needs to be built on respect and appreciation for each person’s individuality.

Smothering is insecure. Ultimately, this is the root of smothering. It can be produced by jealousy, fear, and anxiety, and it’s one of the surest ways of driving someone away.
Love is secure. Love is emotionally strong enough to respect another person’s space and to trust that what’s meant to happen will happen. 

Relationships need space and air to breathe if they’re going to survive and thrive. Smothering can therefore kill a relationship by depriving it of oxygen. So remember, there’s no such thing as loving too much. The real question you need to ask yourself is, Are my actions genuinely loving? There can sometimes be a fine line between loving and smothering, but if you want a healthy and long-lasting relationship, it’s an important one not to cross.

[inpain]

Inpain
Oh and I understand your choice in your name... It is very painful. It's harder seeing our children hurt in such a way and we are helpless to get them what they want and fix this.

Yes, it is. This time round is so much harder than last time because of seeing our children hurting so much and being in the middle of it all.

Your H did this already on a smaller version years ago. This is part 2 because he did not figure himself out the first time around. I know you want to just hold him and talk some sense into him. Sadly you can't. Your kids crying is also ineffective on him.

Yes, I think also, looking back, I made the mistake of letting him back in to easily. He didn't really have to do any work, in fact he didn't do much at all to fix things. You're right about the kids crying being ineffective - in fact, it makes him freeze like a frightened rabbit and he looks like he's never seen a person cry before! Harsh wake up calls perhaps that he cannot handle?

I don't think you are using your children to get your H back. You just want them to be happy and have their daddy back full time. Nothing wrong in wanting your family back together.

Thank you so much for saying this. I am still so very confused about if that is what I am doing or not. It is so hard to cast my own pain and feelings aside to ensure everything is best for them. Begins to feel like the LBS doesn't matter at all.

You also have to ask yourself. Your H right now... Would you date him as he is today. I know I wouldn't date my W. She is not the person I loved for years. She's narcissist and zero values. she has a long way to go. They have to change too and the only way they can do that is working on themselves.

Hmmm...interesting that you should say this. I'm not sure I would date my H now actually. That makes me scared and sad! How was I so deceived back then? Or has he just changed? I know he is not the father I thought he'd be and that has been the problem from my side (if we don't count his OW dalliances that is).

On days your kids don't see and it's not planned that they see their dad. Try keeping them busy. Get them so tired with fun that they fall asleep at the end of the day with happy faces. so important to GAL. You need to do this for you aswell. Your kids are watching.

I did this yesterday and it was great! I suddenly remembered somewhere I had wanted to go during the October school holiday and we went yesterday on the spur of the moment. It was great to be outdoors with them, having fun and we all seemed brighter for it. Going out just the three of us is nothing new. H's working hours are so dreadful that we have gone out more times just the three of us than as a family of four anyway.

It's a great thing their dad wants to be a part of their lives. It has to be your rules.
Don't worry about upsetting him. He left. You are the parent here. He needs to step up and help you raise those kids. Him watching them is a great idea and you go out to GAL. But in my case when W was in and out of my house and was alone with the kids... She never fed them or talked to them. She was on her phone or in another room.

It's tricky isn't it. I can't say he's helping to raise them. I'm doing all of that, he is just turning up for the fun bits. He had them for a whole day last week while I was at work. He did feed them, but other than that S and D said he just sat looking at his tablet all day and they entertained themselves. Great! You'd think now more than ever he'd make more of an effort with them.

How are you financially? Is he paying any support to you and the kids.
Protect your assets. Monitor the bank accounts and seperate them. Stop any joint accounts and credit cards. Protect yourself and your kids.

At the moment nothing has changed financially. A little more money going out because H is buying separate food to us at his Dad's but everything else remains the same as when he was here. When I tried to talk to him about it before Christmas he said we didn't need to sort that side of things yet. He says he isn't bothered about money, just doesn't want to be with me. Ouch.

Really wish you strength . You are not alone and I see you are getting a lot of advise.

Thanks so much Irish! I really do appreciate your input as you are a lot further down the road than me and have a lot to cope with.

[inpain]

Sorry, Inpain. I feel that I am coming across to you as attacking you. I'm not. I just feel every ounce of the pain you are going through every time you write, and being the mom I am, I want it to go away...NOW. I know you do, too.

Ciluzen, please, you don't need to apologise at all. I don't see it as you're attacking me, I know you want the best for me and that you are trying to make me see what I cannot because I am too close and involved, and I am grateful to you.

All you can do is hug them, love them and trust that they will get through it. YOU will get through it. And YOU will show them how.

I am certainly doing lots of hugging them and they are hugging me lots too. I just wish they didn't have to go through this and it does make me angry with H. How can he do this to them? is a question I ask myself a lot.

I know you worry that if you aren't there interacting with him that he won't see your changes. But by not being there and interacting, by saying "have fun! I'm off for a walk with my friends!", aren't you already showing him change?

If I had friends to go on a walk with it would show him change lol but sadly I don't. I did manage to make him do a double take yesterday though. I have always hated filling the car up with fuel. I don't know why, it's silly really, but I tend to go into a panic about not being able to get the fuel cap off, filling the car with the wrong fuel, etc. Anyway, because of this I have never filled our car up, ever. Yesterday I decided to take the kids out on the spur of the moment. It was over an hour's drive away and there wasn't enough fuel so I filled the car! Yay me lol! When H came round the kids told him where we'd been and he looked puzzled and asked if there was enough fuel in the car. I told him I filled up before we left and his jaw hit the floor. I laughed internally. He had to ask if I had put the right fuel in so I joked with him and with a dead pan face told him I'd put the one in that I knew was wrong. He wasn't sure for a second lol. It was good to know I'd surprised him anyway.

Giving space doesn't have to mean you don't see each other. You will still greet him when he sees the kids. But you will limit your interactions. And if those limited interactions are pleasant, more and more he will remember only good things about you. Give this time. Give him space.

I hope you're right, I really do. Giving this time is the hardest thing. Every waking minute is so difficult to get through and I am so drained. I can't imagine how I will feel a few months from now if I am already drained after 2 months. I know I'm trying to hurry this along, I just want to get to the end already. I know, it's a marathon not a sprint, but I've never been any good at either!

Again, I care about you. You are my strength buddy. We both need to remind ourselves, this takes time and understanding. Its a learning process. But we have to walk through the pain, there is no way around it. And we have to drag our children with us through it because we are mothers, but because we are mothers we will show them only our strength in facing it. GAL and detach. Teach them those things, too.

Thank you so much Ciluzen, I'm glad that you're here.

[inpain]

Ooh, thank you so much isittoolate! I don't know if this is the post Ciluzen was talking about but I have read it and it seems like me to a T!! Oops! Something else for me to work on, and yes, it is because I have always been so insecure