Here I am still

[kyrie]

No more EA, just the porn. So, does that mean he's still wayward? He certainly hasn't been looking for anything good with the M, or working on it. Just insisting on me *changing*. Which, I feel that I have, but he says that I have not, which is enormously frustrating. I know it takes time... but if he's not seeing/feeling it, then what else is there??
I haven't really turned to anyone/anything else to get my needs. I have a few friends which care & talk to me (and it makes him mad...some are male) and this place.

[trumpet]

See if you can find a Christian counselor who deals with hidden addictions.

That's what I did - found someone who deals with this every day, coming from a Christian perspective. I was dealing with both the M and the addiction. We tackled the addiction first, as that was the way I was going to heal, and then make headway with the W on reconciliation.

You'd just be working on how to support your H, or not support him, but still be there for the kids.

I know that my porn use went way down when my wife and I did have sex... way back when... lol. I just know putting yourself in that position, when you don't want to be, is sooo tough.

That's why a counselor would be much better than what I'm giving you.

[kyrie]

You know what? I always have wanted to be *that* - and right now, most of the time, I'll take it. It's confusing but it seems like I'm pursuing him...

From what I can tell, it makes no difference in his porn use, despite what he said about the past.
You're right - I have to focus on just supporting him. It's what I want to do... he's the one who keeps sniping and *wanting* to hash through the past, etc.

[kyrie]

On top of pursuing questions... I feel like if I try to flirt or do certain things, it seems to bring about a bad feeling... a reminder of his shame... or something. So it's tricky there too. Dunno if I shouldn't at all or what.
For that matter, he feels the emotional difference too... I can tell. I try not to let it show...but maybe I can't tell how much it does.
So confusing.

[trumpet]

Kyrie,

You can't compete with the porn. Porn is fantasy, and fake.

You want to come from a place of integrity and honesty when you want to be intimate with your husband. Save the heavy flirting for when your marriage is on a sound footing.

Find a counselor. That's what speaking the truth in love would look like.

[Zues126]

You're here, you're challenging yourself, you're making it a priority, you're being deliberate with your decisions, and you're trying to be the best you can be. You have no reason to be ashamed or to feel bad for being imperfect. I am just as flawed. I'm just glad you're posting regularly and taking it seriously. I don't generally do the pep talk thing because I have found it doesn't really work for a number of reasons. But I do appreciate that you realize me being here is a sign of respect for your being here.

Dear Zues, I hear you - and I know I need to really hear this. Most of the time I *can* see past it, but there are moments when it feels like he (and you) don't think my feelings matter at all. That none of this matters & it should just be dismissed. I also know that is not what is intended (right?)............You are right - I *have* to stop sharing my feelings. But...but...they don't go away. Will they be ignored forever? It feels like I've been stuffing them for nearly a year, though they do come out...

My DB Coach told me once: "Now is not the time for you to voice your feelings, needs, views, etc. That will be possible when spouse is committed to working on the marriage. But right now isn't the time. Make no mistake, suppressing your voice isn't creating a model of how a new marriage might work. It is simply allowing the opportunity to give the new marriage a chance."

What I can tell you is that it is a long and difficult road. XW kicked me out 18 months ago. She has not once, not one single time, shown interest in my point of view. The times we have talked she has spewed at me with her narrative. No interest in how I feel about that, or what I might be thinking or feeling. If you read my post on my thread a few days ago you'll see that continues. And you know what? I still haven't wavered once on showing those feelings unsolicited. I am not interested in sharing my feelings with someone that doesn't want to know, and doesn't care, and will only fight about it because they are clinging so hard to their own narrative. It's her journey, she can think what she wants. If the day ever came where she was interested in what I thought, well, then I'd evaluate who she was and determine if I was willing to have that conversation. But I am not holding my breath. The imaginary conversations I used to have with her died off a number of months ago for the most part.

So I'm not suggesting your feelings don't matter. They just don't matter to him. This isn't because he doesn't love you. It's because he feels his feelings don't matter to you. The trick is to show him they do. You don't do that by telling him 'you're feelings matter to me' and then getting angry everytime he feels differently about something than you do, blaming him, judging him, and praying for his salvation...that proves his point. You do that by getting yourself to a place where you can actually hear and respect his point of view, and treat them to equal as your own.

It's ok that you're not there. There's a lot of pain and adversity to sort through. Just know this is the right direction. I posted something on Julie's "Battle of the Sexes" thread, third post on the first page. It talks about perspective, faith, etc. Check it out.

Again, I have confessed my part in this - that I did all those things you've said and more. I seek every day to recognize it (though sometimes it is so hard!) and repent of it. I don't see it as *everything* is his fault.

Good. Keep doing it. This is a daily ritual. It took me a LONG time to get there. Partly because I would resist doing it because it was so easy to focus on XW's affairs and alcoholism. But it's up to you if you want to get there in a few months, a few years after your marriage is over, or never. SO keep making this your priority and stay disciplined.

I do think it explains a lot of things but, I think as you said before, I can separate him from his sins (that was really helpful in clarifying things).

Don't keep score. I assure you that if you asked him the sins you've committed are greater and the explanation for a lot of things is with you.

I want him to be the person he *is* AND the man God intends him to be - whatever that IS.

If you can pray for him from a place of love then that's ok. It's a very slippery slope, however, for those prayers to start including judgment. I'd like you to pray for him, but if it was a choice between praying from a attached and judgmental place versus not praying at all and leaving this between him and his creator I'd prefer the latter.

Yes, he has been "abusive" for our entire marriage - but I've tried to let go of any resentment about that since realizing and repenting of many things.

FWIW, based on some of your words, I have been trying to approach him physically - it's a least something I won't completely screw up...
I have no idea what it means to him...in some ways it feels like I'm just being used, but I know I have to see past all that and hope for the best. What do you think? (asking because I appreciate & respect what you say)

And finally the crux of it. I still think there is one critically important question to answer: Can you remain married to a man that intends to continue to use porn. See, really there are four answers:

1) Yes. It won't be easy, but yes.
2) No. Porn is an affair, if he won't end it I am out.
3) I am not sure. I need some time to soul search.
4) No. So I will remain married and try my best to change his behavior.

Personally I am of the camp of #1. I am not a porn supporter, but I don't believe in ending a marriage unless there is a physical threat or continued adultery (which I define as sex with another person). I think there are many addictions out there. Drugs, alcohol, gambling, smoking, workoholism, overeating, video games, facebook, etc. Many people find themselves medicating at one time or another. Some pull out of it. Some don't. But if all of these were reasons to divorce the divorce rate would be unbelievable. Oh, wait, it is. I think it's wrong to divorce for these reasons. If you can get behind this, then work on accepting it, letting it go, not taking it personally, and being the wife he deserves. Maybe someday he addresses this issue. Maybe not. That can't be the goal. The goal must be to appreciate the opportunity to support and love a great man (just because he uses porn doesn't mean he's not!) and to appreciate the love he does show you. Many, if not all, great marriages involve BOTH parties making this type of sacrifice. I say this because as I've said, there are things he'd feel he is accepting as well!

If you are in the #2 camp, then treat this like a wayward spouse situation. Tell him Porn is cheating, you're not going to live in an open marriage, and then back off, create boundaries, and start separating yourself emotionally and determine if you need to separate physically and legally (over a little time).

If you're in camp #3 then slow down, take some time, pray, and let the marriage sit for a bit. Detach. GAL. Take care of yourself. Work on yourself. Don't do this to hope he changes. Do it and use the time to listen to God's voice.

The ONLY answer I truly have a problem with is number 4. It isn't fair to him. It isn't fair to you. It will result in a destructive cycle of co-dependency, resentment, abuse, controlling behavior, avoidance, secrets, blaming, push/pulling, and just insanity.

The reason this is so important is because you can't flip flop around. If you can accept a porn habit as an imperfection from a husband that is a great man and might be a good husband again if your marriage improves, then by all means I think you should have sex with your husband (unless he's in an active affair). But if you aren't prepared to live with porn in your life then confronting him about his porn use one day and sleeping with him the next is sending him very inconsistent messages. Just realize as I said that not being sexual with him won't help the marriage (and he will probably turn to it more to meet his needs).

So let me ask you a question. If your best friend's husband had a gambling addiction that was creating financial stress and causing her a lot of emotional pain...would you advise her to stay by her man, or that she deserves better?

Funny story, I have a pool playing friend who's W is an addicted gambler. She has been fired for stealing. She has lost their retirement. She has put them back to square one. She has destroyed a lot of goodwill in the marriage. ALL of his friends say he should file D...but he hasn't. He has basically told me that he is prepared to stay with her forever. He's tried to support her on her journey when she goes to outpatient treatment, or when she tries to restart the 'days without gambling', and he tries to help her replace that with other things. But when she backslides and says she'll never overcome it, he hugs her and tells her that he's not leaving her ever, and that he loves her with or without the gambling, and that while he doesn't care for it he loves her more, and that when he is rooting for her not to gamble it is only when that aligns with her journey to quit, when she stumbles he immediately shows compassion and not an ounce of disappointment. He's prepared to accept the consequences because he believes this is the best road. And you know what? In a world where everyone files D because fill in the blank imperfection, I am the one friend of his that tells him he's an inspiration and the best person I know.

[Zues126]

Kyrie,

You can't compete with the porn. Porn is fantasy, and fake.

You want to come from a place of integrity and honesty when you want to be intimate with your husband. Save the heavy flirting for when your marriage is on a sound footing.

Find a counselor. That's what speaking the truth in love would look like.

See my last post. The reason I feel so strongly opposed to this is because it falls into that 'camp 4'.

Let me ask you the same question Trumpet. If your wife had used porn, would you have divorced her? Or if she had gambled?

The more we try to control other people's behavior the more we interfere with their journey the less likely they are to achieve growth. The wake up call you had was not from a wife that wanted you to change, it was from someone that had truly stopped trying to control you. It was the lack of her efforts to change you that caused you to wake up. Realize that.

[kyrie]

But I do appreciate that you realize me being here is a sign of respect for your being here.
-I need a lot of clarity and you do provide that for me.

My DB Coach told me once: "Now is not the time for you to voice your feelings, needs, views, etc. That will be possible when spouse is committed to working on the marriage. But right now isn't the time. Make no mistake, suppressing your voice isn't creating a model of how a new marriage might work. It is simply allowing the opportunity to give the new marriage a chance."
-Knowing my H, I'm not completely convinced here but I know what you're trying to say.

Your talk of her narrative/your narrative reminds me of some convos I've had... some things are objective - that's usually what we get tangled in. But still, I know that in the end, it's toxic, *even if we can prove we're right*. I get it. The "narrative" language sounds ... well, you know.

It's ok that you're not there. There's a lot of pain and adversity to sort through. Just know this is the right direction. I posted something on Julie's "Battle of the Sexes" thread, third post on the first page. It talks about perspective, faith, etc. Check it out.
-will do, later. We've got a family 'date' to see the new Star Wars movie tonight. It's something, at least. And he wore his wedding ring all day too (usually it comes off the minute he comes home)

Again, I have confessed my part in this - that I did all those things you've said and more. I seek every day to recognize it (though sometimes it is so hard!) and repent of it. I don't see it as *everything* is his fault.

Good. Keep doing it. This is a daily ritual.
-It had been a near-daily ritual for many weeks. I finally had enough of his spew and got caught up in the cycle again, off and on. I know it set things back. It just seemed like listening & validating and saying what I said was pointless, and just repeating.

I do think it explains a lot of things but, I think as you said before, I can separate him from his sins (that was really helpful in clarifying things).

Don't keep score. I assure you that if you asked him the sins you've committed are greater and the explanation for a lot of things is with you.
-not keeping score - not sure why you said that part. As far as what is "greater", on some level, we would actually agree that adultery is 'greater', which is why Jesus addressed it the ways that he did. Yes, every sin damns us, but some have greater *consequences*. But, that being said, I don't want to sound like that's an excuse for mine, or diminish my guilt or issues.

I want him to be the person he *is* AND the man God intends him to be - whatever that IS.

If you can pray for him from a place of love then that's ok. It's a very slippery slope, however, for those prayers to start including judgment. I'd like you to pray for him, but if it was a choice between praying from a attached and judgmental place versus not praying at all and leaving this between him and his creator I'd prefer the latter.

Yes, he has been "abusive" for our entire marriage - but I've tried to let go of any resentment about that since realizing and repenting of many things.

FWIW, based on some of your words, I have been trying to approach him physically - it's a least something I won't completely screw up...
I have no idea what it means to him...in some ways it feels like I'm just being used, but I know I have to see past all that and hope for the best. What do you think? (asking because I appreciate & respect what you say)

And finally the crux of it. I still think there is one critically important question to answer: Can you remain married to a man that intends to continue to use porn. See, really there are four answers:

1) Yes. It won't be easy, but yes.
2) No. Porn is an affair, if he won't end it I am out.
3) I am not sure. I need some time to soul search.
4) No. So I will remain married and try my best to change his behavior.

Personally I am of the camp of #1. I am not a porn supporter, but I don't believe in ending a marriage unless there is a physical threat or continued adultery (which I define as sex with another person). I think there are many addictions out there. Drugs, alcohol, gambling, smoking, workoholism, overeating, video games, facebook, etc. Many people find themselves medicating at one time or another. Some pull out of it. Some don't. But if all of these were reasons to divorce the divorce rate would be unbelievable. Oh, wait, it is. I think it's wrong to divorce for these reasons. If you can get behind this, then work on accepting it, letting it go, not taking it personally, and being the wife he deserves. Maybe someday he addresses this issue. Maybe not. That can't be the goal. The goal must be to appreciate the opportunity to support and love a great man (just because he uses porn doesn't mean he's not!) and to appreciate the love he does show you. Many, if not all, great marriages involve BOTH parties making this type of sacrifice. I say this because as I've said, there are things he'd feel he is accepting as well!
-well, porn is not the only issue, obviously. I guess I'm at 3, but living at 1, if that makes sense. I know it is my *vow* to support & love him, good or not. I'm not always sure what's the best way to do that, and at what point am I just co-dependent crutch which is NOT loving. Maybe there are more than 4 options. And not taking it personally, well then you might as well said I shouldn't take a lot of things personally that in *fact* are. The secrets and resentment would continue *anyway*.
Take some time... sheesh, been working some of that stuff for far toooo long. He's been turning to it even when things are (at least somewhat) better....[/quote]

So let me ask you a question. If your best friend's husband had a gambling addiction that was creating financial stress and causing her a lot of emotional pain...would you advise her to stay by her man, or that she deserves better?

Of course I'd talk to her about staying and doing what she can. But I'd also recognize that maybe he has to hit rock bottom before *wanting* to get out of the addiction's control. Not that it's her place to force that, but also being a co-dependent isn't helping things either. Again, I can see both sides on that. But, in the big picture, her vow is to love, honor (and traditionally) even obey. I get that.
And I know you're being a good friend to both him and me by staying true to what love and marriage should be. Thank you for that.

[kyrie]

woops, the quote thing didn't work so well there...
Still a few unanswered questions.
It does feel like I'm pursuing...is that wrong?
Part of my GAL has included some male friends...which has made him nervous. Guess I should have them back off - I hate the thought of him feeling that way about me, the way I've felt about him...
Don't misunderstand: I am in no way flirting or having some EA or other crap. Just friends who call or check in on me.

[trumpet]

See my last post. The reason I feel so strongly opposed to this is because it falls into that 'camp 4'.

Let me ask you the same question Trumpet. If your wife had used porn, would you have divorced her? Or if she had gambled?

The more we try to control other people's behavior the more we interfere with their journey the less likely they are to achieve growth. The wake up call you had was not from a wife that wanted you to change, it was from someone that had truly stopped trying to control you. It was the lack of her efforts to change you that caused you to wake up. Realize that.

Zues, my wife didn't start to divorce me because of the porn, and if she had an addiction, I'd stay with her, as hard as it was. I made a comittment - in sickness and in health, for richer or for poorer - a vow.

The years of porn, as well as her own low self-esteem, change of body thyroid (lack of them), weight gain, all transpired in her life, and she hit a low point. Also, she's not a talker about her feelings, so I did't have a clue. I think EA's and PA's make the road to forgiveness sooo much harder - it's a live person, and now real feelings of love and affection are involved.

I think your question, Zues, is either yes, I can live with porn or some other addiction in my spouse, or I can't.

I'm all for for former, except in the case of an EA or PA, which involves matters of the heart, and are talked about in the Bible.

My wife made mention in the beginning, when I found out about the EA, that my porn was a sin, just like the affair. I agreed, but I had no emotional attachment to the women - it was feeding an addiction. Her EA had consequences, and that her heart was with another man. In effect, she's dealing with an addiction.

I've forgiven her, and continue to forgive. It's a daily choice. It doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt like hell some days.