Looking forward to the new year

[Painter]

This is fascinating to read, because I think my H could have written something very similar, and I think I have shared your XW's feelings. In our case, H developed resentment and got involved with OW, but he says he tried for years. I expressed unhappiness to H for years, and spelled out what I needed from him to give him what he needed from me, but nothing changed - but I wasn't leaving or cheating on him, that's not my way.

Zues, I wonder about what exactly you tried? If she reacted like me, the anger was frustration over what she saw as unwillingness from your side to give her what she needed.

I think very few women work silently, by themselves on resolving relationship issues. Silence from a woman is rarely a good thing...

I think many men feel that they courted a woman, then married her, and that should prove their love once and for all. My H will say he is simple to please, but he expects me to want to fulfill his needs without doing anything to fulfill mine. He feels that because he is attracted to me on sight, I should be to him. I feel that he puts the cart before the horse in how things should happen. And I feel that he can get what he wants so easily, if he would only invest a little effort in courting me on an ongoing basis. I don't think he feels he should have to. That is frustrating, because I see his pride and ego get in the way of his and our happiness.

And from everything I read, this is exceedingly common. Which is so sad!

Do you believe he understand what you really wanted and withhold it deliberately? If so, what makes you think so?

My experience with XW was that it was much harder to live up to her expectations that you are describing. And her communications seemed to be coming in both infrequently and in some strange code.

On my end it was literally "I want to have sex 3-4 times per week if possible. There are some things we have done together that I really enjoyed, like x or y, if we could do more of that it would be amazing because I never feel more loved." That's why I say men are easy. It's literally like asking to have a button pushed regularly to keep them happy.

...

So yes, this lead to a vicious circle. It may have been as simple as me feeling like "If you loved me you'd have sex with me", and her feeling "If you loved me you'd love me for who I am regardless of sex".

The reason I asked my opening question is that for the majority of the M I didn't deny anything to my XW intentionally. I couldn't win either because I simply didn't know how, or I kept clung to things that got in the way of intimacy. Then, towards the end it changed. I will admit that in the end when we weren't speaking there was some resentment at work, I was resentful of giving so much to her to get nothing in return. This, however, was after I couldn't figure out how to win. But the point is this is the same idea I highlighted in black up above. This idea that she doesn't deserve love or affection from me because she's not giving it to me the way I want.

So some of my distancing WAS abusive in deliberately denying her affection because she didn't 'deserve' it, and I was trying to control her behavior by 'sending her a message'. I firmly believe this attitude doesn't work at all in a marriage. I think the idea of "you do this, you get this" is a horrible model for loving each other. And THIS is what I think is too common. Love has to be a daily priority that is placed ahead of resentment, you must meet each other's needs even when you're bankrupted and resentful, otherwise the cycle doesn't get better, it gets worse. Again I'll mention Andy Stanley's "marriage expectations" series 1-3 on youtube.

As I said, I did have high expectations. We were a long ways apart on the sexual topics. I have learned how much it destroys intimacy when I put my desires in front of her feelings. I also know how it felt to me to not receive the affection I wanted from her. I STILL don't know how to bridge the difference on this one.

....

Long rant as always. My summary is that I did try what I could to make her happy and to figure out what that meant, and tried that for a long time...but then I did pull away, partly to punish and control, but also quite a bit just out of defeat and to get some escape from the pain. I have learned a lot about the differences between most men and women on the sexuality front, but instead of having answers, I only feel further from answers than ever. I have learned that a marriage can't be tit for tat, but having experienced the pain of many years of neglect I know how tough that challenge is and don't know if I can manage it.

No, I don't think he is withholding deliberately. I think there might be two forces at play: 1) he doesn't like to 'be told' what to do, and 2) he doesn't really understand how important it is to me.

The things I need and have asked for are very basic and, from what I read, typical for women: 1) Non-sexual affection - a hug or other physical touch that is not sexually charged, daily. 2) Small gifts or other symbols that shows he thinks about me when I am not standing in front of him. I have specifically asked for flowers on Fridays. I told H that the anticipation and joy I would feel would make me very happy and go a long way to set a great mood for the weekend. 3) Attention - a sympathetic or validating statement, listening without impatience or interruption, asking how my day was. Greeting me when he comes home or leaves the house.

I have seen several counselors to try to figure out our problems. H didn't want to participate. I was told by a male counselor that what I needed and asked for was reasonable, normal, and that I was unusually clear about it, and didn't play guessing games, like some women do. He said many women feel that 'if I have to ask for it, it's not worth anything.' I don't feel that way.

I know that H needs regular sex because it is his expression of love, and I know that having dinner ready when he comes home makes him feel like I care about him.

He also needs loving statements from me. (I'm not very verbally expressive of love, definitely an acts of service-person. I have found that people can say 'I love you' all the time without much meaning behind it, it's like a greeting. But H is a 'words of affirmation'-person, so he needs that and I'm working on it.)

This fits the 'typical' pattern of women needing intimacy to get to sex, and men needing sex to get to intimacy. If no one takes the lead, it turns into a standoff, or, also typical, women 'giving it up' until the resentment has reached such heights that they leave. I didn't leave, I tried to explain my needs to H over and over, drawing the line from A to B so he would understand that flowers every Friday evening = sex every Saturday morning. If that was me and I needed sex so badly, I would have a standing order with the florist!

And it's not tit-for-tat, it's seduction. It's the difference between me setting a nice table and making a good dinner versus serving hot dogs on a paper plate for every meal all week.

So on the surface, this should be easy, right?

Except that it lasted only one day. I kept fulfilling his needs, to where he even said he experienced an unprecedented connection with me, but he just stopped giving me what I needed after our 'reconciliation' weekend. He knows how to, he just stops. What am I supposed to do?

When I bring it up, he says 'if I only get more sex, I would do those things'. Well, I've tried that for 15 years and it's not happening.

So I don't withhold sex - if I feel like it, I will freely take the initiative - but I just don't want it because I feel used and abused. It feels like I give and give and don't get what I need.
I think that for most women, having sex if you don't want to or feel unappreciated, feels very demeaning. You compared it to pushing a button - it's a lot more involved than that. You may feel that women have a lot of sexual power, but I don't think many women feel that power when things are not good. As a rule, we are physically smaller and weaker than men, have less of a temper, are less pushy and aggressive, and can feel bullied into doing something we did not desire. I have felt that for years with H - he has been angry many times at me for rejecting him, but anger is not good foreplay! I see how anger can come from rejection, but it just doesn't work.

I saw one thing you said in your post that jumped out at me - you said you 'couldn't win'. I know it's an expression and you may not have meant it that way, but it's something that has struck me with H, as well. I feel like we are a unit, that it's either a win-win or lose-lose for both of us in our interaction, while I feel that H acts as we are opponents and it's a win-lose game. Our discussions feel like it's his way or the highway, while I try to negotiate and find a compromise. He doesn't seem to like compromises, anything I want as an outcome that he didn't want as an outcome, he counts as a loss and becomes resentful.

Julie, thank you for hosting our conversation! I guess it can be seen as flattering that people like to hang out at your place?