Updated/still thinking about next steps

[kyrie]

I ask and he either says he can't really say or that I should know by now and therefore I'm a bad fit/bad wife for him. OUCH.

Then he said something terrible - that I was more like a mother

Kyrie, none of this is easy. In fact your sitch is tougher than many because your H isn't gone and you have so many more decisions to make. And the pain of being so close but so far is terrible. I am sorry you're here, and glad you're posting more.

I am concerned that his porn use is giving you a target to blame for the problems in your marriage. You can do some research online, find people that support your view, ignore views that disagree, then diagnose his addiction as the problem.

He doesn't see it that way. His comments above speak to two things:
1) Diminishing his point of view
2) Controlling

At least that's how I read them. I have seen a number of WAS's say "you should know by now...", and I have in fact said that to XW. The origin of that comment came from a feeling of exasperation of having desperately, desperately, desperately tried to communicate my most important messages from my heart, only to have those messages dismissed and rejected. The same way that you hesitate to initiate after being rejected, he feels that way much more so. The same way you struggle to fully trust him, he struggles to trust you to hear him. Why?

The second part speaks to mothering. Mothers do two things...they have all of the control, and from a kids point of view they diminish their voice because they believe 'they know what's best'. A kid feels like 'mom doesn't understand, mom doesn't care'. Meanwhile mom believes she does know best, and it's easy for her to feel that her child's feelings and desires are somehow less important than her own. It's easy for her to dismiss what her children are saying as being 'childish', or 'my kids don't understand, I do, I'm doing what's best for them'. And while there's a lot of truth in that in a parent/child relationship, that dynamic can be very harmful in a M.

Put them together and I assure you he feels like you are condescending to him, that you think you are up here, he is down there, that you have the answers to the problems, and the problems are that he isn't doing things the way you want him to.

I am warning you of the same thing. Diagnosing H, making porn the primary issue, and holding his feelings and beliefs at arms length is dangerous. He is clearly mistrustful of opening up to you because he is afraid saying anytime you disagree 'that's the porn talking'. Extremely dismissive. Extremely diminishing. Extremely controlling as you would then be communicating that you solely have the judgment to dictate the reality of what's going on in the M.

With this in mind my recommendation would be to not magnify the use of porn into a mountain. I would get off the high horse and spend some time refocusing on your own road, some of which may be as destructive as anything he brings. I would make special priority in LISTENING to H, and to monitoring your thoughts carefully for any reflexive dismissal of his point of view, as well as to avoid controlling behavior like the plague. Talk of "tell me if you are tempted" is judgmental (you are wrong for doing that) and controlling (here is what you must do). This is the opposite direction.

Now, all of this goes out the window if 1) this is a deal breaker and you are ready to leave because of it, or 2) you are concerned for the safety of the 14 year old. If these are true then do what you must do.

But, if you don't believe there is imminent danger, and you aren't sure that you can't make a marriage work with your H using porn, then this is the path I'd recommend for now. Maybe you can develop a good marriage despite his porn use. Maybe it fades away AFTER a good marriage is developed. Maybe none of the above, and at least you've grown and know you stood by your man and marriage until something forced your hand.

Maybe you want to hear support for the idea that H is the problem and he needs to change to fix the M. If nothing else realize two things. One, this is most likely your H's point of view. And two, if you throw out what I'm saying because it doesn't jive with what you want, then you're probably doing the same thing with your H which is why he feels his voice isn't being heard.

I hear what you're saying Zues. Please don't leave! But I also relate to Trumpet's points. Zues - you sound like him. He has said some of those very things.
I don't want to diminish his feelings or control things. I realize that I am sounding that way but I just don't see it (sometimes). He'll ask me directly if I think he's not able to help us or is a good counselor, etc. I refuse to lie but I try to be gentle. He sees through all of it.
I know he wants to be heard. It's pretty hard to hear him and understand through all of his walls. They have always been there, more or less.
Maybe I should express that I understand the porn is not the primary issue, as you have said. It is a devastating mountain, but it is not HIM. I get that.
The thing with the 14D is scary but I also know my fears could be clouding my judgment. It is possible, but not necessarily definite. Sure looks bad though.
With the grip of an addiction like this, I know he cannot promise anything and I don't have any expectations or stated ultimatums. But I sure hate it and hate that it's there and may even continue...
You say "for now". For how long?? This has protracted on for sooo long already.
I want to hear the truth - not just 'what I want to hear'. I want to know what is the right way to be there for him. Yes, listen. I offered that. He said I sounded condescending even with that. Sheesh.

[kyrie]

Kyrie,

Your husband is spewing addiction script. It sounds like he's a controlling husband, to be frank. And his control has had to get stronger on everything around his life, since he can't control the porn addiction - the sin is too great. By controlling everything else within his grasp, he's trying to maintain order.

A huge weapon? He gave you half-truths, and that was enough for him to realize you could blow his world up. He's very scared right now. And I'm a bit worried about you, Kyrie.

My gut says you need to talk to another pastor about this, and do an intervention. But I'm no therapist, and can't even follow my own advise sometimes. Maybe you can find a counselor to confide in and get counsel?

He's completely controlling. OCD, the works.
His admission was huge though. I did not think he would be able to even somewhat admit anything there. I think it was a test - too see if I'd go nuclear.
An intervention would be seen as nuclear - and probably an end. But...I also wonder, like you, that it's a break down before a break-through. Dunno.

[kyrie]

JB - did you see my comments?
It's an "amateur" site. It appears to be consentual (though with children, really, come on).
I am scared about next steps. Would a DB coach be able to deal with this kind of craptacular mess?
And as always, thank you.



The girls do look very young, sometimes advertised as young teens, etc. Sometimes the scene shows a very tiny, anorexic thing and a much larger man. Ugh.
But the stepdad one is specific - playing video games, laughing, touching... then more.

[JellyB]

Kyrie,

My personal opinion is you need some professional guidance around what your next steps might be. You are correct about trying to maintain a balanced view of knowing your H porn preferences and his behaviours towards your 14 year old daughter. You could well be feeling hypervigiliant about his behaviours, and seeing more there than what is, but you are being a protective mother too. If things have gotten to this point. Personally and professionally I would view this as a tipping point.

This needs to be handle delicately, and quite frankly there is no way to handle this without there being an initial cost. Any father, man is going to be defensive and scared and feeling accused and mistrusted raising Porn and his behaviour with your daughter.

You guys need professional support. There is a bottom line you need to find as a W and mother regarding your feelings about safety for your daughter. A strategic intervention is required, and some complete honesty with yourself is needed first. You need to work that out, sooner rather than later. The boards are not going to cut it.

My social worker hat has million things I want to ask and want to advise you to do. But this is not appropriate. Please, please contact Cristy to discuss your sitch, an initial one on one conversation with a counsellor, to formulate a plan would be a great starting place. You will be able to have a full and frank discussion. There are many questions that need to be asked that are not appropriate in an open forum like this, to complete an assessment of what would be the best fit for you and H and children.

Please reach our to Cristy.

JellyBxxx

[kyrie]

JB, your expertise is invaluable - I wish you could share it!
Now he is sending me texts that he feels condemned by me. I acknowledged that he felt that way but that I don't condemn him. He txtd back that I do condemn him and dismiss him. Ugh. I must be terrible at validating. Or this is just too far gone. If I don't respond at all he gets mad too.
Right now he just arrived in Oregon for serving at the mission church tomorrow. Last time he went, he visited a local nudie bar (I saw his travel credit card statement).
What do you mean about complete honesty with myself? I know I have contributed and made many, many errors, bad habits, etc.
I haven't brought up anything about the teen thing (again he doesn't know how much I know). Nor have I brought up the bar. I just found out about both of those the day that I first posted again, a few days ago.

Appropriate...shoot, everything I've typed here isn't appropriate. But it's here.

[trumpet]

JellyB, I wholeheartedly agree.

Kyrie, I think Zeus and I might be disagreeing a bit on the particulars of your sitch, but we both want to see what you want - a healthy relationship with your H. We're here on this board to help bring our own M back from terrible places. I was attracted to your thread because of my personal addiction, and thought my perspective could help with what your husband might be going through.

I still think, to a casual, middle-of-the-road observer, porn isn't a big deal. To your husband, who is a pastor, it probably is a huge deal. Has he preached upon the topic? Have sermons that speak to it?

[kyrie]

I appreciate that. I know you're doing your best - the whole thing is confusing (not you guys so much - just this sin-soaked world). You have been helpful, truly.
It isn't a big deal, esp. when its used as an escape, alternative, or even spitefully. He hasn't specifically talked about it in sermons, but he teaches about the 6th commandment (not committing adultery, leading a chaste & decent life in thought, word and deed) and of course all of Jesus's teachings, not to mention that marriage reflects Christ & the Church! Unfaithfulness is unfaithfulness and must be dealt with. I think he feels that he's dealing with it. Maybe he is. but the computer records show a different story. Maybe it used to be even worse. I dunno.

[JellyB]

The condemnation and the anger is the shame talking. You can't heal that Kyrie, only he can.

You are doing the very best you can at this moment. You predict he is going to get mad, so be it, put your spew jacket on, he needs to vent and unfortunately your the target.

At this stage I don't think there is anything you could text him that would soothe him. Just take your self esteem and ego and step back from what he is saying just at the moment.

The other thing Kyrie and I mean this respectfully you are completely absorbed in everything H is doing and not doing. Take a moment while he is away and focus on you. Get a plan together. Stop living moment to moment to each conversation and text with H and start working on a real plan.

Personally I would be talking to a therapist about my worries that my H porn use is potentially going to place my daughter's sexual safety at risk.

That I don't know how to raise how concerned I am about everything because H, distracts and stonewalls with emotional manipulation and anger.

That I don't know how to create space for us to get perspective. I don't know how to say that I can't live like this anymore, but I want to keep our marriage, but I don't want this.

That I don't know how to say I want talk through issues within our marriage, but with someone else who can guide and give us perspective.

Kyrie in the country where I live adults watching/accessing porn that involves under age children/young people is illegal, and involves a social worker like me visiting and discussing safety planning with parents. I don't know what you have seen H accessing but, if your know if places children and young people at risk. It needs to be addressed.

Kyrie take a couple of steps back from everything and talk to Cristy please. Get the help you need.

You need a plan for you Kyrie, otherwise all this keeps going.

JellyBxxx

[PigPen]

Just catching up a bit on this kyrie. I had addiction in my M as well and believe that your H knows it's a bigger deal than he's letting on - especially if he's a pastor.

Usually it's a numbing agent, like all addictions. It's not about sex or the porn itself, but the trance that he's able to get in when he's looking at it. All of his pain goes away for a few minutes. It's an opiate like Facebook is for some people and TV for others, he gets to tune out.

Porn is also an interesting addiction in that there is so much shame around it. I've told a number of people this year that I quit drinking - all applauded me. I've told a number of people this year that I quit smoking pot - all applauded me. I've told a number of people that I completely eliminated porn from my life as well - I got a lot of odd looks when I said it. Most of the men said, "Why did you do that, all guys looks at porn." No one ever said, "Why did you do that, all guys drink."

It's not cool to have a porn addiction, I commend Trumpet and Zues for talking about their struggles with it. I've spoken to other men this year who are completely trapped by it, having it ruin their marriages, cost them their jobs etc. Unlike alcohol and heroin though, you don't come back in at lunch after a porn binge and smell like booze or have glassy eyes, so most men with a problem with it have a much bigger problem than anyone knows.

I'm sorry you find yourself where you do, it's not an impossible situation, but it's a challenging one for sure. Zeus and Trumpet are giving you good advice, coming from the male perspective. Someone on here months ago wrote, "I'll never understand why a man would look at a computer screen when his real life wife was willing." She completely missed the mark. It's not about the porn, it's about the pain.

Sending you patience and strength.

PP

[kyrie]

Thank you PigPen. I appreciate you being vulnerable like that too. And FWIW, I applaud your strength in dealing with all those chains on your heart and soul. That takes real strength and real guts and real faith.

So some of the things he said last night was that he wished I stayed up and even initiated or at least showed interest (not in his words). Even after talking about that kind of revelation!

Are you saying I shouldn't continue to show interest, try to meet at least some needs?

How do I talk to Cristy?