Updated/still thinking about next steps

[kyrie]

Kyrie,

Giving your husband a wide birth, to hurt, and for you to not fix him is what DB'ing is about. It hurts to watch him hurt, but like you said, only he can fix himself. Moving away from the raging fire so you don't get singed... but you will, since you're his W.

His heart is hardened. It has a shell covering it, and no other love is allowed to break in, including the love of Christ. I had to admit I was broken, and I couldn't fix myself. It took a blowout to crack the shell. And then for me to continue to hit bottom. That's when you hear God whisper - he never yells. From there, it was easy to see what I needed to do. Saying I was an addict actually was easy, once I knew my trying to fix things only destroyed those around me.

Every time my W and I have had opportunity to talk about us or the R, and that was too many times in the last 2 months, I come from a humble, but hurting heart. I say I'm sorry. And if we were trying to R right now, I'd be saying it often.

Your husband is trying to find God in sex, since it's a powerful tool we've been given. He isn't finding him there. He never will, not by himself.

YES! His heart is SO hard, most of the time. That blowout is what I wondered about...if that's the only thing that will get through...that he has to hit rock bottom and lose it all. Which is so sad. But maybe that's the only way?
He shows NO sign of humility (but *demands* it of me! Ironic!), nor any sign of remorse/repentance.

But does wide berth mean to leave him alone - don't make much contact at all? What about his forced discussions he wants to do to "hash through" all of our many problems? I've tried to just listen & validate, etc. We did that for a few months. It was hard, but I did my best.
He regularly says he needs support, community, emotional connection. All my attempts are met with rejection, hostility, etc. Unless its physical, then sometimes he'll respond. I try not to have *ANY* expectations and no reaction when he rejects. But it gets hurtful and I want to learn why/what I could do better. I ask and he either says he can't really say or that I should know by now and therefore I'm a bad fit/bad wife for him. OUCH.

[kyrie]

Last night, right or wrong, I gently asked directly, "are you using porn?" and he said, "I have periodically made that mistake, yes". I asked, throughout our marriage? And he answered periodically. Then went on to say it's not chronic (but in reality, it has been lately - he didn't admit that part - he doesn't know that I see his internet use).
We discussed it some and then got quiet. Mostly I listened, asking that if he felt tempted to please let me know. He said he was tempted when he felt isolated, usually something that I've done or not done. I said that's a terrible feeling and I hate that you've felt that way. I know I need to work on respectfulness and other things.
Then we watched a show for a bit and we were both tired. I headed to bed, as usual. He stayed in the reclining chair, as usual. I went out to him and asked if he just wanted to stay up and he nodded, so I said good night & went to bed. An hour later (after more drinking) he woke me.
He said, I just gave you a huge weapon against me, and I told you that its because I feel isolated - you said you knew that was a bad feeling. And yet you left and went to bed, isolating me.
Groggily I repeated what I said... and then said what did you want from me? To initiate? After hearing about that? Its hard to process all of this, and you want me to initiate?? On top of that, recent times when I've initiated or just reached a hand out to you, you've rejected me, so I'm really confused about all of this.
He reacted and said more about how I don't do things the way he wants me to (around the house or how I talk to him). I can't even remember if I responded or not. But at some point I made it clear that I always want to touch, always have affectionate feelings. Then I reached over and touched his arm and he backed off. Then he said something terrible - that I was more like a mother or trying to be his husband or pastor and not at all ladylike in how I am (not appearance but behavior). Ok, I never do boyish things - fart or burp in front of him, etc. Then he said it was in how I spoke to him. In the past, this was probably true. Not always but enough. But now I've been actively trying to be Ms. Womanly Arts, esp. around him. Demure, waiting, holding my tongue...
I'm really confused. Do I do as he says and "pursue" him, physically, esp. or do I back off, as DBing seems to suggest here.
So confusing.

At least he answered mostly honestly. He denied it was chronic, even though it is right now. Nevertheless, he did not deny it. I tried to acknowledge that was very hard for him to do, but he reject that with a huge sigh of disgust and eye-roll.

[trumpet]

But does wide berth mean to leave him alone - don't make much contact at all? What about his forced discussions he wants to do to "hash through" all of our many problems? I've tried to just listen & validate, etc. We did that for a few months. It was hard, but I did my best.
He regularly says he needs support, community, emotional connection. All my attempts are met with rejection, hostility, etc. Unless its physical, then sometimes he'll respond. I try not to have *ANY* expectations and no reaction when he rejects. But it gets hurtful and I want to learn why/what I could do better. I ask and he either says he can't really say or that I should know by now and therefore I'm a bad fit/bad wife for him. OUCH.

Yes, a wide berth means your support for him is gone. You focus on kids and yourself, and of course interact with him, but no R talk. Your attempts are trying to break thru that bunker of a shell he has around his heart. You're not going to get thru, unless he feels that he'll lose something most dear to him.

You can't do anything better right now. This isn't a case of 'do more for my spouse', it's a case of letting him see the wall he's leaning against go away.

[Zues126]

I ask and he either says he can't really say or that I should know by now and therefore I'm a bad fit/bad wife for him. OUCH.

Then he said something terrible - that I was more like a mother

Kyrie, none of this is easy. In fact your sitch is tougher than many because your H isn't gone and you have so many more decisions to make. And the pain of being so close but so far is terrible. I am sorry you're here, and glad you're posting more.

I am concerned that his porn use is giving you a target to blame for the problems in your marriage. You can do some research online, find people that support your view, ignore views that disagree, then diagnose his addiction as the problem.

He doesn't see it that way. His comments above speak to two things:
1) Diminishing his point of view
2) Controlling

At least that's how I read them. I have seen a number of WAS's say "you should know by now...", and I have in fact said that to XW. The origin of that comment came from a feeling of exasperation of having desperately, desperately, desperately tried to communicate my most important messages from my heart, only to have those messages dismissed and rejected. The same way that you hesitate to initiate after being rejected, he feels that way much more so. The same way you struggle to fully trust him, he struggles to trust you to hear him. Why?

The second part speaks to mothering. Mothers do two things...they have all of the control, and from a kids point of view they diminish their voice because they believe 'they know what's best'. A kid feels like 'mom doesn't understand, mom doesn't care'. Meanwhile mom believes she does know best, and it's easy for her to feel that her child's feelings and desires are somehow less important than her own. It's easy for her to dismiss what her children are saying as being 'childish', or 'my kids don't understand, I do, I'm doing what's best for them'. And while there's a lot of truth in that in a parent/child relationship, that dynamic can be very harmful in a M.

Put them together and I assure you he feels like you are condescending to him, that you think you are up here, he is down there, that you have the answers to the problems, and the problems are that he isn't doing things the way you want him to.

I am warning you of the same thing. Diagnosing H, making porn the primary issue, and holding his feelings and beliefs at arms length is dangerous. He is clearly mistrustful of opening up to you because he is afraid saying anytime you disagree 'that's the porn talking'. Extremely dismissive. Extremely diminishing. Extremely controlling as you would then be communicating that you solely have the judgment to dictate the reality of what's going on in the M.

With this in mind my recommendation would be to not magnify the use of porn into a mountain. I would get off the high horse and spend some time refocusing on your own road, some of which may be as destructive as anything he brings. I would make special priority in LISTENING to H, and to monitoring your thoughts carefully for any reflexive dismissal of his point of view, as well as to avoid controlling behavior like the plague. Talk of "tell me if you are tempted" is judgmental (you are wrong for doing that) and controlling (here is what you must do). This is the opposite direction.

Now, all of this goes out the window if 1) this is a deal breaker and you are ready to leave because of it, or 2) you are concerned for the safety of the 14 year old. If these are true then do what you must do.

But, if you don't believe there is imminent danger, and you aren't sure that you can't make a marriage work with your H using porn, then this is the path I'd recommend for now. Maybe you can develop a good marriage despite his porn use. Maybe it fades away AFTER a good marriage is developed. Maybe none of the above, and at least you've grown and know you stood by your man and marriage until something forced your hand.

Maybe you want to hear support for the idea that H is the problem and he needs to change to fix the M. If nothing else realize two things. One, this is most likely your H's point of view. And two, if you throw out what I'm saying because it doesn't jive with what you want, then you're probably doing the same thing with your H which is why he feels his voice isn't being heard.

[trumpet]

Kyrie,

Your husband is spewing addiction script. It sounds like he's a controlling husband, to be frank. And his control has had to get stronger on everything around his life, since he can't control the porn addiction - the sin is too great. By controlling everything else within his grasp, he's trying to maintain order.

A huge weapon? He gave you half-truths, and that was enough for him to realize you could blow his world up. He's very scared right now. And I'm a bit worried about you, Kyrie.

My gut says you need to talk to another pastor about this, and do an intervention. But I'm no therapist, and can't even follow my own advise sometimes. Maybe you can find a counselor to confide in and get counsel?

[Zues126]

I think this will be my last post on this thread. I think I have said almost everything I have to say.

Trumpet, please read my last post. I think an intervention is the absolute opposite direction she should even contemplate. Talking about her H being controlling, more taking the focus off Kyrie.

I am walking a balance here. I am really proud of you stepping up and taking on the harsh reality of owning your behavior and making positive changes. The challenge is that right now that's the center of your world. You sound like someone that recently converted to a religion and is now seeing their religion as the only solution to the problems of everyone you meet, and find yourself preaching to the cashier's at the gas station. I think that you are fighting an internal battle to remain abstinent, and that in fighting that battle you are repeating this narrative to yourself all day to keep strong. You are clinging to it because it's the only chance of holding onto your M, and holding on to your future. I appreciate that. I do. And in your experience the way it played out is that WAW left you, you quit porn, and now in your narrative she realizes that you are capable of change, you reconscile, and you live happily ever after. And you want that story to play out here.

The problem is that hasn't happened for you, this is a different couple, and you aren't talking to Kyrie's H here, you are talking to Kyrie. And what SHE should do is drastically different than what her H should do.

Even in your case you will be tested again, very strongly...what happens when you realize that WAW doesn't care about the porn anymore and is gone for good? What happens when the payoff you thought you'd get from quitting porn isn't what you expected? You mention addicts and controlling behavior, how do you know you're not still trying to control your WAW by doing everything you can to get what you want from her? And that once you realize you can't control her your motivation wanes?

I am not saying this is the case Trumpet, but this is exactly what happened to me. Twice after quitting for over 90 days I started using porn again. Both times I thought I had it handled, but the stuff we tell ourselves and reality are two different things.

Anyway, I'm not projecting onto you all of the things I struggled with, again, we're different people as well. But I am hoping you give it some thought and tread lightly with other people's situations.

Me, I'm not announcing any bold conclusions or actions or anything like that...the only platform I am standing on is not being conclusive, taking drastic actions, or putting the focus on H's behavior.

[JellyB]

Zues,

I don't disagree with a lot of what you are saying.

Kyrie's fear about H accessing the teenage porn content- puts a slightly different lens on the issue.

This needs further discussion and talking through. I don't believe that the board and our level of expertise around this issue is necessarily the right place.

I did ask Kyrie for more information on this as, it would guide me more in my comments and level of concern. I think we as boarders need to tread carefully here.

Zues this may well need to be a mountain - accessing sexual content of teenagers especially non-consenting young people is not ok. In saying that mountains don't necessarily mean that families and marriages need to dissolve or combust. I have seen a number of families come back from this issue.

Lets be very careful here. Kyrie you can't deal with this in isolation. I'm not saying you have do anything other than open up your system to support and knowledge and plan your next steps. Do this with a therapist who specialises in this work.

This is all very complex and next steps need to protect everyone. H and children and Kyrie you.

Keep posting Kyrie. There is plan here for you, H and children somewhere. It just needs more light on it.

Jellyb XXX

[Zues126]

Now, all of this goes out the window if 1) this is a deal breaker and you are ready to leave because of it, or 2) you are concerned for the safety of the 14 year old. If these are true then do what you must do.

Agreed JB, I think Kyrie should have professional help, I think DB Coaches are the best. I quoted this to show that I concur with the idea that if there is danger she needs immediate help. OK, Z out, take care y'all!

BTW- was it underage porn? Or was it just porn with that title? I have seen many fantasy titles. Not sure if it makes a differeence, but from a legality standpoint it might. JB, you mentioned it, so I thought I'd ask for clarity for you. Thanks!

[JellyB]

I had already asked Zues. I think Kyrie missed it.

And my concern was raised more by Kyrie's sentence about her daughter. When mum's have those worries, then it moves porn use into a different realm for me.

Personally I am neither here nor there about a person's personal use of porn. I am however a protector and advocate of children and non consenting young people.

I also have a pretty good knowledge of the relationship between porn and abuse against children. Please note that this is a BIG INTELLECTUAL AND EMOTIONAL LEAP! Thus my suggestion to tread lightly here.

I agree with you Zues, DB coach, 100%. Let me say too that this is a complex marriage sitch, and Kyrie our wish is to support you.

Please keep sharing your story and what the board can do you assist you to feel better about YOU.

Much love

JellyBxxx

[kyrie]

But does wide berth mean to leave him alone - don't make much contact at all? What about his forced discussions he wants to do to "hash through" all of our many problems? I've tried to just listen & validate, etc. We did that for a few months. It was hard, but I did my best.
He regularly says he needs support, community, emotional connection. All my attempts are met with rejection, hostility, etc. Unless its physical, then sometimes he'll respond. I try not to have *ANY* expectations and no reaction when he rejects. But it gets hurtful and I want to learn why/what I could do better. I ask and he either says he can't really say or that I should know by now and therefore I'm a bad fit/bad wife for him. OUCH.

Yes, a wide berth means your support for him is gone. You focus on kids and yourself, and of course interact with him, but no R talk. Your attempts are trying to break thru that bunker of a shell he has around his heart. You're not going to get thru, unless he feels that he'll lose something most dear to him.

You can't do anything better right now. This isn't a case of 'do more for my spouse', it's a case of letting him see the wall he's leaning against go away.

I need more specifics on support for him is gone. I don't want to have R talk but he forces it.