Updated/still thinking about next steps

[Zues126]

I don't know about that Trumpet. Gosh, I like you, I don't mean to be so disagreeable. But you don't know how it would've played out.

There was a study on addiction that busted a lot of myths. It had to do with the old test with the rat locked in a cage with two bottles of water, one normal, one laced with cocaine. The rat quickly got addicted to the cocaine-water and that was all he drank, eventually ODing. The conclusion was the cocaine was so addictive that people will kill themselves for it. Then another study was done, and this time the rat wasn't in a 'cage', but a rat paradise. There were hamster wheels, mazes of tubes to run through, things to chew, and other rats. And of course the two bottles of water. In this 'cage' the rat tried the cocaine water a few times, then left it alone, and never got 'addicted'.

The point is that addiction doesn't happen with a well rounded support system. It happens in a void. People that are homeless, jobless, don't have friends or family...they have no social structure set up to meet any of their needs. It is easy to want to medicate. Whereas in general people that are being fulfilled don't have the same desire to grasp onto garbage.

It's a little chicken and the egg as addiction can also cost you that support structure...my conclusion is NOT that addiction isn't in any way real, or anything like that. But unhealthy habits play a role in meeting our needs or medicating against the pain of not having our needs met. Part of recovery needs to be about recreating that support structure, not just straight abstinence. Because abstinence with perpetual pain of denial won't last. The support structure must be built as well. This is why in DBing GAL is so important. You are rebuilding your support structure to overcome the dependence on your old M.

So...had your W stayed with you, accepted your problems, and time passed, could you two have eventually pieced together a working marriage? And if so, is it at least possible that at some point you'd find yourself grateful for what she was contributing, and desiring to contribute more yourself, and realizing that porn wasn't helping something that was giving you more purpose and support and connection than a screen? I think it's possible. And it's possible that the use would've just diminished, that it would literally have gone from a compulsion to a casual usage, there are people that socially drink after all, like the majority of the population. Not sure. But to conclude that W had to leave you for you to quit porn, I can't be on board with that.

It's too close to the logic people use, that it's been proven that people that get divorced are happier five years later. That's true, but it's a false truth, because I'd bet my bottom dollar that people that remain in a miserable marriage are ALSO happy five years later. It's not the divorce that brings happiness. It's the road people walk that take them out of that pit.

My beliefs, and the beliefs this site are based on, suggest that it's not necessary to destroy a lifelong partnership and a family to find growth and change. I am sick and tired of our culture equating a 'first marriage' as a 'larva stage' of life, like you get married, have kids, start a family, then get divorced and grow from it like a snake shedding it's skin. That is complete bullcrap, it is the devil, it is the worst social problem in our country that people buy that garbage. That the point of a marriage is to be with each other through those changes and through that growth, or that lack of growth, for in sickness and in health, for better or for worse, until death we part.

[Zues126]

One more thing Trump...you are doing a remarkable thing. Turning lemons into lemonade. You are making the worst thing that can happen in your life become a turning point for personal growth and a positive journey. I truly applaud that. Truly.

Part of your narrative is looking at the D as a gift. As Cadet says, the gift of time. I definitely agree with the road you're on.

There have been several debates about calling D a gift though. I am in the camp that it is not. I will use it as if it were...I will make good choices post D, be happier post D, be a better dad post D...but never will I agree that D was a good thing, of 'for the best'.

That said, if the narrative you have constructed is fueling positive change in your life, stick with it!

[trumpet]

I agree with most everything stated, Zues. Nice.

I just think the porn is playing with fire, even casually. An alcoholic will need to stop completely for the rest of their life. One drink can put them over the edge. Some people are built to have those addictive tendancies - some of us find addictions to cope with life, and don't have the tendancies, but still fall victim. I used it to cope - no argument there. We would have pieced together a working M, if my needs were being met, and I'd most likely have cut down the porn a lot, and would have worked on meeting her needs. MWD in DR states in the sexual dysfunction chapter that just women giving their men sex for a month resulted in the man showing the things the woman wanted in the first place - attention and love - men, we're easy creatures most of time.

I want respect, and intimacy with my wife. I haven't gotten them for years, and patched the wound with porn and staying late at work. The porn was there before the marriage, it just didn't dent the relationship until we were months into the marriage - we were getting our needs met early on.

I didn't know how much I needed my emotional and physical needs met by my W until the porn 'patch' was torn off, and the wound opened fully.

Kyrie, sorry to hijack your thread. Let us know what's going on, and how we can help. Zues is awesome to talk with - he will tell you straight! He's much farther along - I'm in the middle of the battle.

[sandi2]

Kyrie, I wish I knew how to help you. So glad you have these three who have spent much time with you. I tried to get some background, but I have several questions, if you don't mind.

Has your H always been into the porn, or did it start later on the M?

Did the church ask for your H's resignation, or did he surprise them by resigning?

Were any of the members aware of his A with OW?

Unfortunately, I have known a couple of ministers who fell from grace and left their flock and families to live a lifestyle that was quite opposite to the spiritual role he tried to fill. I know two who D their W's and M the OW. It has a shattering affect on so many people.

Anyway, the two of you have tried to put distant between him and the church he pastured, is that correct? Are you attending church in your new area? What about your H?

Do you have any idea how long he has tried to live a double life? The pressure must be terrible for him, as well as you. It would seem that he's trying to turn his back on what is godly. Those who remind him, or cause him to feel guilty, pull anger out of him. I get the sense he is easily angered with you, for several reason, but just the fact you want to have a godly M doesn't seem to set well with him. It's his rebellion that wants to fight you at every turn. That, and of course, his desires of having his ego stroked. In addition to usual problems associated with a sitch such as this, he is fighting a spiritual battle, and he may recognize you standing on the side of what's godly. Therefore, it would seem to me, the more you try to coax him into confessing, or whatever, the more resistant he will be, b/c of him seeing you as pressure to conform.

I think this may be what the scriptures refer to when it says a wife shall lead her husband by the way she lives her life. No preaching to him, no pressure, no guilt. Quietly live your life the way you feel spiritually directed, and he will have to answer to God for his rebellion. You have the choice of deciding what you can handle and what you can't. You may have to take things off the table.......like......fairness, justification, cooperation, looking for evidence that he's on board, forgiveness without confession from him, etc. Only you know if you can do it, or not. And only you know if you have the faith to step back and let God do His work in your H.

[kyrie]

So much to respond to here! Thank you, all.
The "never good enough" concept plays out in every aspect of our marriage. Our sex life actually is pretty good, all things considered. It's that I'm never good at being a cook, a friend, a housekeeper (oh, did I mention I'm the sole provider, really, for the family? - neither of us likes this sitch but its how we survive. Does he do housework? Nearly none.)
Yes, counter-intuitive behaviors. He is scared of his other self. I've seen it, and am familiar with it, though he thinks it's not something I can handle. I have. He resents that he was wrong about that too. Maybe he'll never feel like that rope won't break.

[kyrie]

Hi Kyrie,

I still feel like I am missing some fundamental pieces of your puzzle.

On reading your comments I am left with the impression that you are both equally diagnosing each other. It reads like you both have incredibly high expectations of what the other is "supposed" to doing as person, as a partner and as a child of god. It is all sounds like hard work and lots of blame.

Zues has hit the nail on the head I think of the quite complex co-dependent relationship between you and H. And neither one of you, H and you, knows how to get out of the problem communication loop. My sense is that H is the externaliser (angry on the outside), while you are the internaliser. I don't know if this is the case Kyrie, but you sound really angry and resentful yourself. Could this be true?

I tend to agree with Zues on the use of porn front. You would be best discussing this with an expert sex therapist or addiction specialist with regard to discussing this with your H. If husband does have an addiction in this area, then be guided by the experts.

Sorry I am not sure if you are accessing IC? I am also a little stuck about why your H as a trainer counsellor is not seeking therapeutic support in this instance. His training surely should be guiding him in this instance. If H is isolating the M relationship from outside influences, the reasons for him doing so may shed a little light on the sitch.

I am also wondering when things were last good between. Also when you and H first got together, what was the attraction? How do you two come to be together?

Feel free not to answer any of the above, but I'm kinda searching to get my head around your sitch. More information is needed I think.

I am wondering if some female posters and vets with MLC experience could pop in a help out. Zues and I have no experience of MLC and would be interested if there are any patterns or signs of MLC for Kyrie's husband.

Tell me a little more about your understanding of Dbing and how you are applying it.

Hang in there Kyrie. Chin up!

JellyBxxx

Try to respond to all of this...yes, we have been diagnosing each other. I do it to understand and formulate a game plan/response. I know I cannot change him. And I certainly don't want to just box and label him. I express that I don't think of him as an adulterer or irredeemable, etc. His words sound like he thinks that way, maybe about himself. Trying not to have expectations. And I expressed that to him, As we go through this.
Not really meeting w/an IC (though he brought that up yesterday!). He doesn't think he needs help. He's got it all under *control*, remember?
He claims things were never good. We've had pockets of good, but it's easy to look back and think it was mostly bad. I could do that too. But I've spent about 6 months going back and realizing what I missed, my mistakes (and confessing them) and realizing he loved me in ways that I did not see. He only wants my love on his terms, and I did the same to him. I expressed that too, but he rejected his error.
Attraction: faith, similarities in music, worldview/politics, Church, family. A lot of shared interests and hopes. The MLC part has shifted all of that - all his priorities & dreams are very different now. Fantasy mostly.

[trumpet]

Kyrie,

Keep posting. Answer Sandi's questions - she's trying to piece the sitch. together from your responses.

Ever see the matrix trilogy?
Remember the oracle?
That's Sandi!

Yeah.

[kyrie]

My concern is you seem to think this is an addiction that he needs to overcome to allow the M to succeed. I am probably in the minority here but I don't think this is necessarily the case. My view on this is that nobody's perfect. Alcohol, gambling, drugs, porn, food, social media, internet, emotional/physical affairs, and on, and on. These days there are a million traps people can fall into. And then there are other problems, abuse victims, adopted children, people with PTSD, then people with extreme personality traits bordering on disorders.

My point is I don't think anyone is normal, and to point out someone's abnormalities with the idea that they are flaws and if they simply 'took care of them' suddenly everything would work, well, to me that's not realistic or helpful. I think a marriage involves two flawed people that find ways to make a working partnership. I simply don't believe that anyone that has an addiction can't be a good partner, or that any and all addictions are a deal breaker.

Those aren't DB principles though, just my opinion.

DB does, however, talk to not changing your partner. I grow concerned about the word 'confront'. I will warn you that to him porn is a total non-issue, like if you read a romance novel...but at the same time it surrounds an area more sensitive than you realize. The only reason he is keeping it secret is because he thinks YOU wouldn't UNDERSTAND, and that you'll view it as an addiction, and blame him for the problems in the M. I say UNDERSTAND in all caps because this is probably his #1 hot button, I repeat, #1, absolutely #1...that you understand and affirm his sexuality and desires...which is why I am so concerned with you talking about having researched 'effects of porn on men' and talk about 'confronting'.

My goodness. The gap between how you two see this is so great I'm stunned. I'm not saying he's right and you're wrong. I'm just saying the gap is great. If you expect to go in with the attitude of making him understand your point of view that won't work. Especially not when you don't understand his.

So to sum it up, I think that assuming porn is the issue in the M, thinking you've solved the puzzle, and trying to enlighten him so he changes his behavior and improves the M...that is not going to work. Instead I'd recommend being more interested in what he has to say and how he views it, try to learn from him what you can, and change your own behavior to change the dynamic of the M. And to do so with or without porn being in the mix. Maybe you can find a way to work out a great marriage anyway. Maybe he changes and lets it go on his own down the road as things change. Maybe the M doesn't work. But I think any positive outcome will hinge on a mutual understanding, and since he's not able to step up and lead that conversation right now, you might have to.

Still catching up:
Not sure it *needs* to be overcome... but yeah, it's unacceptable and rots the marriage. Which is why lust is a precursor to other things... weakening the foundations of the heart/soul and is condemned specifically by Jesus Christ. Of course he's not perfect - I don't expect him to be, esp. all at once. But he has to take it seriously and has to realize it has degraded us, and his perceptions. He knows its a sin but won't repent of it - THAT's a serious sign for a Christian. And yes, Pastors are just men and tend to be Satan's FAVORITE target. The insane thing is, porn was also a factor in my first marriage's failing...so many parallels.
He doesn't see it as a "non-issue" either. He ultimately knows its wrong - he doesn't need me to tell him that, I know. And I haven't (directly anyway). He knows it would hurt me to know it, and that's part of his fear/shame. I've always been very open and expressive about wanting him but maybe I'm missing something there too. More on what happened last night later... for now I'll just respond to all of your comments/thoughts.
My only other thoughts about 'how I view porn' as you put it Zues, is that it explains a lot. Like why he's always been rather misogynistic (not that I'm in ANY way a feminist!!), but rather ugly in his attitudes toward all women, why I *never* please him enough (not sexually really) and why all the secrets and fantasy, why he can never love his mother. It really does explain a lot.

[kyrie]

Kyrie,

I'm a conservative Christian.
I am a porn addict.
It helped to destroy a marriage - my W and I are on the brink of her filing the D.
I'm high sex drive, my W was always very low sex drive. In fact, she considers sex 'icky' and 'gross'. We haven't had sex in 3 years - tried a few times in the last 6 or so, but never were able to get things to 'work' together. Both of us are on SSRI's, and mine helps to decrease libido and orgasms, which has helped me to curb my desires, but essentially for all the wrong reasons.

I can tell you that the anger you're seeing in your husband is the SHAME he is feeling from the porn. He is/was a man of the cloth. He knows the scriptures, and knows that even lustful thoughts of another woman is considered a sin.

I think he needs another pastor to witness to him. It will need to be a 'coming to Jesus' moment, and it might rock his world, or put him on a deeper path for a while.

I've been clean from porn for 62 days. Read Surfing for God - I would recommend that book for him, if he wants to read about pornography addiction, or you reading it to understand what he's feeling. My desire for porn came from 3 underlying issues:

1.)rejection from a previous 4 year relationship in HS/college
2.)Stress - and not knowing how to cope with stresses
3.)Lack of sex/intimacy with W

Now, my W had her own issues which brought about her low drive - self-esteem issues, weight gain, being assulted as a child, and being raped in college. Also, mental health issues run in her family, mostly stemming from abusive alchoholic fathers.

The desire for porn in your husbands case might be different, but he's essentially substituting good relationship (you) for false/bad ones (porn). The shame he feels is so intense he must lash out at others. The battle inside of him is so intense, he's lost his way, and is probably angry at God for making him like this. God created us to be sexual beings, and to have desires, and to want sex. It isn't a bad thing - but I definitely saw it as that when the porn was very pervasive.

I could talk more - let me know if you have questions. I'd like to help you get perspective if you need it.

Just know that many men are dealing with this, and some in marriage circles feel it's acceptable to do in a relationship... while others don't. My wife always felt like I was having an affair on her... but my counter was that I felt nothing towards these women I saw on the screen. Currently, she never watched any porn, but found another couple men over the last 3 years that helped her feel better about herself and filled the emotional holes that I couldn't fill, or didn't know existed. I think some MLC is mixed in with my sitch, too, which you might be experiencing as well. Either way, it was the major contributing factor to our marriage falling apart.

Trumpet, I SO appreciate everything you've shared. Our circumstances are different... but you are truly doing the right thing *and* you're helping me and others. He still is in the Ministry. He is a great pastor and I have always supported him and still openly do. No one else knows all this terrible secret, other than one other fellow pastor to whom I have confided. He does desperately need another pastor but pride and fear prevents that. He has said that a lack of intimacy (full intimacy, not just physical) with me is *the* problem, even though he used porn before our marriage and apparently throughout. He doesn't not (openly) seem to understand how much this affects me and how much it hurts. Maybe he does but cannot face it. Any hint of it causes that anger/rejection response.
I may indeed have questions. Thank you so much. I know it is tremendously hard to talk about but SO helpful. I hope it helps you too.
It is SO pervasive! Our culture is utterly saturated. Its terrifying for me. I'm no prude! I'm willing and eager to please - always have been. But that's between he and me - NO ONE ELSE. So it feels like a violation when there is *every other woman* in the way. I know that's not entirely the reality, but it *feels* that way. Husband and wife are each other's gifts - and that should never be torn asunder and replaced with cheap imitations. Doesn't matter if you didn't have feelings for them - it's still a replacement, you know?

[kyrie]

I agree with Zues on marriages and intimate partnerships being made up for flawed people. The porn is not the primary issue and your addressing it through confrontation is only going to make your H defensive. If anyone is going to name the porn as an addiction, it needs to be H and a therapist.

Right now you too are mirroring back to each disconnection, mistrust, anger and resentment. These are the things to work through now. The porn, H anger, the affair, his lack of integrity between his behaviour and his ministry, this all needs to come out later. Not now.

This is why I asked about the past and what brought you two together. You can't start this Dbing journey trying to identity for all the problems and talk through them - right now.

Slow down and take a breath. Just keep focussing on keeping things calm and quiet. Do this the best you can while H is spewing.

Keep going Kyrie. Keep talking to us.

Much love

JellyB xxx

You've got great insights here JB - I don't want to focus on those things but *HE* keeps saying we need to. "We need to sort through and deal with all our problems, all the horse [censored], before we can do anything else".
UGH.