Updated/still thinking about next steps

[Zues126]

By the way, I am not telling you the research you've done is wrong...only asking you to remain extremely open minded, sensitive, and cautious. You are touching on things that are so profoundly central to the core of your H that if you go bulldozing around he will erupt like a bull in a china shop. Proceed with EXTREME caution with any type of conversation. If you come in thinking you know him, understand the issues, whatever, it could really make him feel misunderstood, criticized, rejected, judged, condemned, abandoned, diminished, all at once. I don't think that's what you want.

Have you asked him to look up articles that sum up HIS point of view and told him you'd love to listen more to how he views his porn use, in a non-judgmental way?

Sorry I am not trying to critique too much, just a general caution before you have any talks with him on this topic.

By the way, vets, where the heck are you? Why is it just me and JB? This woman has a husband that still lives with her and shows signs of wanting a healthy marriage. Can someone catch up and give some guidance here?

[JellyB]

Hi Kyrie,

I still feel like I am missing some fundamental pieces of your puzzle.

On reading your comments I am left with the impression that you are both equally diagnosing each other. It reads like you both have incredibly high expectations of what the other is "supposed" to doing as person, as a partner and as a child of god. It is all sounds like hard work and lots of blame.

Zues has hit the nail on the head I think of the quite complex co-dependent relationship between you and H. And neither one of you, H and you, knows how to get out of the problem communication loop. My sense is that H is the externaliser (angry on the outside), while you are the internaliser. I don't know if this is the case Kyrie, but you sound really angry and resentful yourself. Could this be true?

I tend to agree with Zues on the use of porn front. You would be best discussing this with an expert sex therapist or addiction specialist with regard to discussing this with your H. If husband does have an addiction in this area, then be guided by the experts.

Sorry I am not sure if you are accessing IC? I am also a little stuck about why your H as a trainer counsellor is not seeking therapeutic support in this instance. His training surely should be guiding him in this instance. If H is isolating the M relationship from outside influences, the reasons for him doing so may shed a little light on the sitch.

I am also wondering when things were last good between. Also when you and H first got together, what was the attraction? How do you two come to be together?

Feel free not to answer any of the above, but I'm kinda searching to get my head around your sitch. More information is needed I think.

I am wondering if some female posters and vets with MLC experience could pop in a help out. Zues and I have no experience of MLC and would be interested if there are any patterns or signs of MLC for Kyrie's husband.

Tell me a little more about your understanding of Dbing and how you are applying it.

Hang in there Kyrie. Chin up!

JellyBxxx

[kyrie]

He doesn't know that I know. And that's what I need to confront him with.
You're right JB. You've got it. I don't want to be resentful but I hate where we are and what he (and I) have done.
He thinks he knows everything. Physicians are the worst patients kinda thing.

[Zues126]

My concern is you seem to think this is an addiction that he needs to overcome to allow the M to succeed. I am probably in the minority here but I don't think this is necessarily the case. My view on this is that nobody's perfect. Alcohol, gambling, drugs, porn, food, social media, internet, emotional/physical affairs, and on, and on. These days there are a million traps people can fall into. And then there are other problems, abuse victims, adopted children, people with PTSD, then people with extreme personality traits bordering on disorders.

My point is I don't think anyone is normal, and to point out someone's abnormalities with the idea that they are flaws and if they simply 'took care of them' suddenly everything would work, well, to me that's not realistic or helpful. I think a marriage involves two flawed people that find ways to make a working partnership. I simply don't believe that anyone that has an addiction can't be a good partner, or that any and all addictions are a deal breaker.

Those aren't DB principles though, just my opinion.

DB does, however, talk to not changing your partner. I grow concerned about the word 'confront'. I will warn you that to him porn is a total non-issue, like if you read a romance novel...but at the same time it surrounds an area more sensitive than you realize. The only reason he is keeping it secret is because he thinks YOU wouldn't UNDERSTAND, and that you'll view it as an addiction, and blame him for the problems in the M. I say UNDERSTAND in all caps because this is probably his #1 hot button, I repeat, #1, absolutely #1...that you understand and affirm his sexuality and desires...which is why I am so concerned with you talking about having researched 'effects of porn on men' and talk about 'confronting'.

My goodness. The gap between how you two see this is so great I'm stunned. I'm not saying he's right and you're wrong. I'm just saying the gap is great. If you expect to go in with the attitude of making him understand your point of view that won't work. Especially not when you don't understand his.

So to sum it up, I think that assuming porn is the issue in the M, thinking you've solved the puzzle, and trying to enlighten him so he changes his behavior and improves the M...that is not going to work. Instead I'd recommend being more interested in what he has to say and how he views it, try to learn from him what you can, and change your own behavior to change the dynamic of the M. And to do so with or without porn being in the mix. Maybe you can find a way to work out a great marriage anyway. Maybe he changes and lets it go on his own down the road as things change. Maybe the M doesn't work. But I think any positive outcome will hinge on a mutual understanding, and since he's not able to step up and lead that conversation right now, you might have to.

[trumpet]

Kyrie,

I'm a conservative Christian.
I am a porn addict.
It helped to destroy a marriage - my W and I are on the brink of her filing the D.
I'm high sex drive, my W was always very low sex drive. In fact, she considers sex 'icky' and 'gross'. We haven't had sex in 3 years - tried a few times in the last 6 or so, but never were able to get things to 'work' together. Both of us are on SSRI's, and mine helps to decrease libido and orgasms, which has helped me to curb my desires, but essentially for all the wrong reasons.

I can tell you that the anger you're seeing in your husband is the SHAME he is feeling from the porn. He is/was a man of the cloth. He knows the scriptures, and knows that even lustful thoughts of another woman is considered a sin.

I think he needs another pastor to witness to him. It will need to be a 'coming to Jesus' moment, and it might rock his world, or put him on a deeper path for a while.

I've been clean from porn for 62 days. Read Surfing for God - I would recommend that book for him, if he wants to read about pornography addiction, or you reading it to understand what he's feeling. My desire for porn came from 3 underlying issues:

1.)rejection from a previous 4 year relationship in HS/college
2.)Stress - and not knowing how to cope with stresses
3.)Lack of sex/intimacy with W

Now, my W had her own issues which brought about her low drive - self-esteem issues, weight gain, being assulted as a child, and being raped in college. Also, mental health issues run in her family, mostly stemming from abusive alchoholic fathers.

The desire for porn in your husbands case might be different, but he's essentially substituting good relationship (you) for false/bad ones (porn). The shame he feels is so intense he must lash out at others. The battle inside of him is so intense, he's lost his way, and is probably angry at God for making him like this. God created us to be sexual beings, and to have desires, and to want sex. It isn't a bad thing - but I definitely saw it as that when the porn was very pervasive.

I could talk more - let me know if you have questions. I'd like to help you get perspective if you need it.

Just know that many men are dealing with this, and some in marriage circles feel it's acceptable to do in a relationship... while others don't. My wife always felt like I was having an affair on her... but my counter was that I felt nothing towards these women I saw on the screen. Currently, she never watched any porn, but found another couple men over the last 3 years that helped her feel better about herself and filled the emotional holes that I couldn't fill, or didn't know existed. I think some MLC is mixed in with my sitch, too, which you might be experiencing as well. Either way, it was the major contributing factor to our marriage falling apart.

[JellyB]

I agree with Zues on marriages and intimate partnerships being made up for flawed people. The porn is not the primary issue and your addressing it through confrontation is only going to make your H defensive. If anyone is going to name the porn as an addiction, it needs to be H and a therapist.

Right now you too are mirroring back to each disconnection, mistrust, anger and resentment. These are the things to work through now. The porn, H anger, the affair, his lack of integrity between his behaviour and his ministry, this all needs to come out later. Not now.

This is why I asked about the past and what brought you two together. You can't start this Dbing journey trying to identity for all the problems and talk through them - right now.

Slow down and take a breath. Just keep focussing on keeping things calm and quiet. Do this the best you can while H is spewing.

Keep going Kyrie. Keep talking to us.

Much love

JellyB xxx

[Zues126]

Trumpet, much of what you're saying is spot on. My only concern is this:

I think he needs another pastor to witness to him. It will need to be a 'coming to Jesus' moment, and it might rock his world, or put him on a deeper path for a while.

DBing truly isn't about changing the other person.

If her H was unwilling to do this, what then? Is there no way to have a functional and meaningful marriage without him following this path? Should she file for D if he doesn't immediately agree this is an addiction responsible for the problems in the M and agree not to view porn again?

When you ask the follow up questions you'll see why DB truly is about working on ourselves.

JB, you said it better than I ever could. Thank you.

[trumpet]

Zues,

Thanks for the concern. I was expressing concern for Kyrie's H.
My wife told me for years to knock off the porn - it was hurting her. I didn't. My comment above wasn't in regards to their marriage, but his health.

My wife had a one-night PA - didn't wake me up. Finally, discovering the EA in October shook me enough to stop and think what I was doing was wrong.

DB'ing is EXACTLY what you should be doing Kyrie. I don't think you're going to get your husband to stop the porn by telling him to stop. Pulling yourself away so you can work on yourself, and he might notice. It takes time.

My comment about another pastor is that someone he greatly respects might be another way to shake him from his addiction. His addiction has spiraled out of control.

I'm 8 weeks out, and the urges are much less. Some might disagree that porn rewires your brain, but man, I can tell you from personal experience that I feel different, I think different. I still have urges now and then, but I have a choice to take action on them, and I can think before I act. Before the BD, I felt like I didn't have self-control, and it was my only way to make it through a day.

DB'ing has the effect of getting the other spouse to stop and think about their actions, and then the spouse realizes what they're doing and starts to work on the M and R. The big effect is taking control of what lies before you - the path you're on, and only your path.

[Zues126]

Zues,

Thanks for the concern. I was expressing concern for Kyrie's H.
My wife told me for years to knock off the porn - it was hurting her. I didn't. My comment above wasn't in regards to their marriage, but his health.

My wife had a one-night PA - didn't wake me up. Finally, discovering the EA in October shook me enough to stop and think what I was doing was wrong.

DB'ing is EXACTLY what you should be doing Kyrie. I don't think you're going to get your husband to stop the porn by telling him to stop. Pulling yourself away so you can work on yourself, and he might notice. It takes time.

My comment about another pastor is that someone he greatly respects might be another way to shake him from his addiction. His addiction has spiraled out of control.

I'm 8 weeks out, and the urges are much less. Some might disagree that porn rewires your brain, but man, I can tell you from personal experience that I feel different, I think different. I still have urges now and then, but I have a choice to take action on them, and I can think before I act. Before the BD, I felt like I didn't have self-control, and it was my only way to make it through a day.

DB'ing has the effect of getting the other spouse to stop and think about their actions, and then the spouse realizes what they're doing and starts to work on the M and R. The big effect is taking control of what lies before you - the path you're on, and only your path.

Trumpet, I truly understand where you are coming from.

The thing that I get concerned with is the idea of cause and effect, things that are linked deeply with co-dependent people. The idea that 'she did this, I didn't quit, she did this, it woke me up and I did', followed with 'I don't think you can get him to quit by telling him to'.

A better phrase would be 'I don't think you can get him to quit'. PERIOD.

Co-dependent people spend their entire lives twisting around addicts behavior. An alcoholic's wife might hide bottles, confront, nag, threaten, beg, plead, walk away, withhold affection, and try a million and one things to control their partner's behavior.

So, now...who is sicker? The alcoholic, or the alcoholic's wife? They are BOTH sick.

Kyrie has shown extreme tendencies in trying to control H's behavior, and co-dependent outlooks. This is dangerous to HER. When her husband posts on this forum we can help him, when it's Kyrie we need to help Kyrie.

The idea of taking her on her H's porn as if it's her problem, or the threat to the marriage that must be solved if only she can find the right approach...that is dangerous to HER.

Many people confuse DBing with co-dependency. It can be done wrong. If she is DBing with any thoughts of pulling away being a strategy to 'wake husband up', well, that won't work, because she won't really be emotionally detaching, it will be more attachment, more attempts at control, and no growth on her end as an individual.

Personally I think her finding her own happiness inside of a broken porn infested marriage is a better DB goal. How many alcoholics are there that remained married with some happiness in them? Accepting some dysfunction is a whole lot healthier than becoming pathological about trying to diagnose your partner and find a way to stamp it all out.

[trumpet]

I agree about accepting some dysfuction - we all make mistakes. Many feel that porn is a continual affair with other men/women, so it might be a deal breaker for some. And using DB'ing to wake someone up - get it. My first attempt was exactly that, and it didn't work - when I got a whiff that the W was kind-of willing to try to R, I jumped off DB'ing, and was back to begging and pleading. Ugh. That wasn't DB'ing. DB'ing is about YOU, not your spouse.

Would my M have been better if my W would have accepted the addiction, worked around it, and still fed my emotional and physical needs? Probably. In Divorce Remedy, MWD talks about a W coping with a porn husband - the W was able to separate the two (the action and her H), and they moved forward. I guess it's much like living with an alcoholic spouse.

I still wouldn't have faced down my demon, though. And my kids would have eventually found out. What kind of dad would I be? Would I be respected? Would they fall in my footsteps since I was telling them it was OK, since dad did it?